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Chit Chat => Biggus Yakus => Topic started by: lightningdance on December 29, 2015, 09:55:13 AM

Title: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on December 29, 2015, 09:55:13 AM
Looks like women are deserting Shorten big time. They left to support Gillard but then came back to Liberal but couldn't bear Abbott but they seem to love Lord Waffleworth. Oh well as long as the old tired losers of Labor don't get back in.

This must be a huge worry for Labor, they have always been very good at the politics so how come they are doing nothing now.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Icyfroth on December 29, 2015, 10:14:41 AM
They're nothing like the old Labor.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on December 29, 2015, 10:18:55 AM
Shorten has been a wake up call for women and men alike.
Best thing that ever happened to the Lefties and they cant even get rid of the prick :):):):):)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on December 29, 2015, 10:27:53 AM
He's a woman abuser and a grubby social climber. And.....much worse.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on December 29, 2015, 10:32:35 AM
 He's a prick now ? you have no idea . the thing with shorten is he lacks turnbulls slimy charm . turnbull can talk the leg off a chair .. tell them he's pickling their grandmothers and the simple folks lap it up ''ooh he's edificated and rich ooh ''
that will wear off soon enough. As for the claims he's unelectable one only has to look at the former PM clownshoes  :D  if he can win nobody is ever out of the race dearies .
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on December 29, 2015, 10:36:14 AM
He's a woman abuser and a grubby social climber. And.....much worse.

  where is there proof he's a woman abuser ? there is none you liar . not a iota.
larry pickering set that up , that woman was a co -conspirator 'sarah'' the police dismissed her as a liar.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Icyfroth on December 29, 2015, 10:41:10 AM
He's a prick now ? you have no idea . the thing with shorten is he lacks turnbulls slimy charm . turnbull can talk the leg off a chair .. tell them he's pickling their grandmothers and the simple folks lap it up ''ooh he's edificated and rich ooh ''
that will wear off soon enough. As for the claims he's unelectable one only has to look at the former PM clownshoes  :D  if he can win nobody is ever out of the race dearies .

don't forget "urbane"  :-*
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on December 29, 2015, 10:59:41 AM
The police did no such thing. They couldn't proceed because too much time had passed and the DPP made the decision that it would have no result therefore saving the taxpayers money. He also knocked up one of his aides.
He's a very grubby human being, another sexual predator Labor are so fond of supporting along with the paediphiles who just love labor and are nominated for parliament.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on December 29, 2015, 11:08:22 AM
 bull s hi pe . the police didn't continue because the entire episode was a fabrication. larry found and trained-up a mentally ill and vulnerable woman for his mudslinging , the cops looked and dismissed it out of hand . nothing .. not a sausage .
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on December 29, 2015, 11:20:33 AM
The statute of limitations for abuse is long and even longer for sexual abuse. Current popular opinion is that it can take 15 or more years for a victim of abuse to be able to address their situation adequately.

The DPP can't decide NOT to prosecute for the sake of saving money. You said it yourself, they determined that there was not sufficient evidence to produce a result/gain a conviction. That's why they didn't proceed. Because they couldn't convince the court that there was a case to answer. To proceed would have meant wasting the courts time and money when there was no case which is in breach of the Barrister's rules.

and unless doing so without consent, getting someone pregnant is not abuse nor does it mean that someone is a sexual predator.

It's sprouting crap like all that that is causing the issues in our courts and criminal justice system and clogging them up and preventing them from working as effectively as they should.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on December 29, 2015, 11:31:42 AM
 simple fact is there is no evidence . the exercise was designed to inflict damage and flopped except with pickering readers . the kind who love rape cartoons with gillard as victim.  no cred .
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on December 29, 2015, 11:48:01 AM
Because the DPP determined that there was a slim chance of conviction does not mean the rape did not take place.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on December 29, 2015, 11:50:27 AM
 it means nothing as you well know.
Abbott raped my pig , i demand a police investigation ! even if the police dismiss my claims there must be something to it  :)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on December 29, 2015, 11:56:15 AM
Because the DPP determined that there was a slim chance of conviction does not mean the rape did not take place.

so where is the proof that it did?

Anyone can make an accusation.

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on December 29, 2015, 12:03:02 PM
There’s no proof that he didn’t. He has form.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on December 29, 2015, 12:08:00 PM
 like ? what form ?  :) liar. (or gullible simpleton) it's hard to know which.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on December 29, 2015, 12:15:27 PM
There’s no proof that he didn’t. He has form.

What proof do you have that you didn't rape the person in question?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on December 29, 2015, 01:17:54 PM
I didnt rape anyone cheers.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on December 29, 2015, 01:31:05 PM
I didnt rape anyone cheers.

someone said you did, i believe them because it suits my political view  :)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on December 29, 2015, 01:59:25 PM
Very loyal of you Frownie to follow in Wee Willie's footsteps "I don't know what was said but I fully support what was said" you have learnt your indoctrination well :)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on December 29, 2015, 03:49:42 PM
  you used that many times before , shows that real material is in fact thin on the ground.
 it's like me repeating ''nobody is the suppository of all wisdom'' endlessly . which was funny at the time but not worth repeating as a standard answer.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on December 29, 2015, 03:55:39 PM
  you used that many times before , shows that real material is in fact thin on the ground.
 it's like me repeating ''nobody is the suppository of all wisdom'' endlessly . which was funny at the time but not worth repeating as a standard answer.

nah, it's still pretty funny. Unfortunate and embarrassing for sure, but that faux pas was a corker - up there with the inspiration for Monman's Chuckle store, the chicken being nailed to the fence. That one really does deserve a place over the mantle in the pool room.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on December 29, 2015, 03:57:22 PM
to balance it out, I thought that Ms Gillard calling people internet nutjobs was a similarly unfortunate choice of words, but it's still a classic.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on December 29, 2015, 04:42:32 PM
And Shortens "we are all somebody" and Gillards "we are us" will go down in history as peak twaddle.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on December 29, 2015, 05:11:12 PM
 nah , tone wins by miles  :) for sheer idiocy he's a champ , his own party think so . only people who haven't met him admire him.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on December 29, 2015, 05:17:17 PM
By the sound of it you must have met him several times a day.  8)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on December 29, 2015, 05:52:52 PM
Abbott  :) :D ;D :D ;D

I don't think we have heard the last yet, from that looney.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on December 29, 2015, 06:01:19 PM
And Shortens "we are all somebody" and Gillards "we are us" will go down in history as peak twaddle.

well, I am somebody. My mummy told me so.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on December 29, 2015, 09:30:43 PM
We are us Cheers  8)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: iapetus_rocks on December 30, 2015, 02:00:54 AM
Ye are ye. and We are we. and never the twain shall meet, politically speaking.

Although it's not really a case of "shall"; it's more a matter of will.

When the right wing of the political spectrum begins to develop a social conscience and starts to consider the social good ahead of their selfish desire for personal financial advancement, then there might be a common meeting ground.

I'm an optimist, and it might one day happen. But I'm also a realist and I understand that there is still much work to be done in educating those of the right wing away from their personal selfish desires which have already cost our community so much.

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on December 30, 2015, 09:22:34 AM
Rocks you must try to wean yourself off the old comrade mindset and stop calling people selfish and thoughtless if they are not left. It's insulting and uncalled for.

It's the old leftist mantra, to demonize anybody who is not labor.

I could very well say you vote labor till your 40 and grow a brain up and then you vote liberal.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on December 30, 2015, 11:18:50 AM
Rocks, Socialism in any of its various forms just does not work.
Through out history and I don't just mean recent history but back as far as Neanderthal Man and probably before Man, there was the instinct of survival of the fittest. You see it in animals as well. Without this instinct we would still be amoeba wallowing in the primordial slime.
It is this instinct that drives us to strive  to improve our lives and make things easier.
Socialism in all its forms tries to stifle that instinct in the masses and attempts to homogenise everyone into a coffee coloured, featureless mass without texture. Yet those who drive socialism want to be set aside from the masses and rise to the top as the upper echelon who control the masses. There you can see the instinct at work.
Suppressing the survival instinct, which has been instilled in all beings since time immemorial can not be done. Throughout history altruistic socialism has failed.
Even on a much smaller scale like just two people, there is always the struggle for supremacy.
Without the survival instinct  there would be no striving to achieve and we might as well just head back to the primordial slime.
The problem is that there can never be situation where everyone puts in as much effort as everyone else, the majority feel that they should be catered for just for being alive
 
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on December 30, 2015, 11:39:36 AM
  Our political system is by nature socialist . our education system and health system owe their existence to socialist ideals . the Australian notion of a ''fair go'' is without question a socialist viewpoint. our hard-earned industrial relations system is a socialist institution.
The nature of western capitalism contains socialist elements especially when required as fixes .. the bailouts of US companies during the GFC where the state injected funds to save private companies from extinction and thereby saving 100's of thousands of jobs is a socialist initiative (and a very successful one) .western civilisation without socialism would leave us with an unthinkable fascist system that would invariably collapse. We wouldn't be a country of any note without these ideals .
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on December 30, 2015, 11:46:06 AM
Liberal ideology in Australia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_Australia
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on December 30, 2015, 11:53:41 AM
Liberal ideology in Australia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_Australia

 Lie no 1.  use the word "liberal'' as a party name  :) liberals are socialists and free-thinkers not tea-party loonies.
 the liberal party dries here are more conservative than anything else . it's much like newsltd spouting ''fair and unbiased''  it simply isn't true.  :)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on December 30, 2015, 02:50:36 PM
Ye are ye. and We are we. and never the twain shall meet, politically speaking.

Although it's not really a case of "shall"; it's more a matter of will.

When the right wing of the political spectrum begins to develop a social conscience and starts to consider the social good ahead of their selfish desire for personal financial advancement, then there might be a common meeting ground.

I'm an optimist, and it might one day happen. But I'm also a realist and I understand that there is still much work to be done in educating those of the right wing away from their personal selfish desires which have already cost our community so much.

Well said (well written).
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on December 30, 2015, 03:10:02 PM
Kim, what would you contribute to the social good?
I would like to hear concept of how you would like to see society.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on December 30, 2015, 04:51:46 PM
Pass. Will just get the same ole repeated responses/blurb in reply.

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on December 30, 2015, 10:17:08 PM
Thought so :( Rusted ons seldom care to contribute either way, they just regurgitate the rote mantra which is without substance. :)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on December 30, 2015, 10:44:54 PM
Too true poddy, they are only comfortable regurgitating the old demonization of people who are aspirational and achievers.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on December 31, 2015, 12:05:37 AM
 That isn't true , i have the utmost respect for Mr Brough and Mr Briggs . i'd go as far as to suggest  in Mr Briggs defence that the incident was triggered by a song from the late Tim Buckley . If i remember correctly it's rather suggestive , i think it's called "Hong Kong bar''  :)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: iapetus_rocks on December 31, 2015, 12:48:18 AM
Sorry to disturb you with my "rusted on" "leftist mantra", but for all that, it's the truth.

The rapacious thirst for "success" and for profit is stripping our planet bare of resources and polluting the environment (both yours and mine)

A few millionaires are generated and many more millions of poor, and we are fed a lie by very sophisticated advertisers and spin doctors that this is all ok, and that it's the natural course of things and that we too can participate and become one of the "successful" elite. (actually we can't because those with the real wealth and power aren't going to let it slip away from them in any meaningful measure to the plebs, no matter how hard they work for it)

We have the ability to reflect on our actions and to examine the motivations for such.


We cannot continue to grow our economy indefinitely in an environment of finite resources. This is logic. it's common sense.

It is not profitable (except in the short term, and to a few) to continue to live under the illusion that we can all continue to increase the rate at which we consume.

There's really plenty in the world right now to go around so that no one starves. It's just that our economy is based on making money from starving people (because they will work for lower wages and even the poor must buy at least some things in order to survive)

It's a totally immoral system of economics. It's vicious and it's duplicitous. it's oppressive and it's dangerous.

it is destroying our rain forests and polluting our rivers and our air and killing the wild life . . . and it's all because we tolerate it. because we are fed the myth that free enterprise is the way it ought to be. and we stupidly and selfishly suck it up.


and it doesn't matter if we vote Labor or Liberal because both parties subscribe to this economic nightmare model.

I believe there is no escape now and that we are doomed as a species; it's only a matter of time before our willful stupidity and our willful greed  kills us all off.


A closed system with finite resources cannot support an economic model which depends on ever increasing growth and expansion for its success.

This is logical and mathematically sound. Some people know this and realise it, but some people just don't care if they rape and pillage just so long as they get theirs here and now in their lifetime.

and some other people get sucked in and duped by the myth that one day (soon) they too might become rich and if they do, they'll bury their guilt under a stack of rationalisations; anything to keep them from facing the awful truth of what they have become.












Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on December 31, 2015, 09:23:57 AM
Rocks I respect your opinion but I respectfully disagree with it. As for clumping all conservatives into the rapacious and plantet destroying box, well the same could be said for the Socialists, who by the way, have been routed from just about  everywhere in the world and a democratic system of government has replaced it.

We are not mindless minions who go along with the crap that is fed out, we have a mind of our own to make decisions. Unfortunately Socialists don't want the masses to make any decisions about their lives, feed them odoriferous brown stuff that sticks to your shoes and keep them in the dark.

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: sam on December 31, 2015, 11:46:01 AM
  Our political system is by nature socialist . our education system and health system owe their existence to socialist ideals . the Australian notion of a ''fair go'' is without question a socialist viewpoint. our hard-earned industrial relations system is a socialist institution.
The nature of western capitalism contains socialist elements especially when required as fixes .. the bailouts of US companies during the GFC where the state injected funds to save private companies from extinction and thereby saving 100's of thousands of jobs is a socialist initiative (and a very successful one) .western civilisation without socialism would leave us with an unthinkable fascist system that would invariably collapse. We wouldn't be a country of any note without these ideals .

Did you get that from "The Intervwiew?"  :)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on December 31, 2015, 11:54:05 AM
 no .  can you refute what i wrote ?  :)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on December 31, 2015, 04:36:31 PM

  Our political system is by nature socialist.

Tell yourself you're dreaming. Our political system is a democratic one, nothing whatsover to do with socialism.
Socialism is a failed system and  here you are, you poor old red, trying to breathe life into a dead ideology.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on December 31, 2015, 07:30:42 PM
  you can only snipe it seems. try and refute what i said with some reason ,sorry ..  you cant  :)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: iapetus_rocks on January 01, 2016, 03:08:41 AM
Socialism hasn't failed at all; it's just that it has to do hard battle against those who spout the myth of a "democratic" system but who won't acknowledge the fact that our politicians are dependent on and beholden to private contributors to their campaign funds.

Our politicians are bought and paid for. by private interests. our politicians (all or most of them) literally cannot afford to act in the public interest when they rely on and solicit (like the whores they are) bribes which steer them away from acting for the common good.

greedy, self-interested leeches. all of them.

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: iapetus_rocks on January 01, 2016, 03:24:42 AM
This is not democracy. it's a bought and paid for representative system which peddles the myth to the gullible that it is democratic and fair, when it just isn't.

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Laxadanto on January 01, 2016, 01:45:26 PM
Suppressing the survival instinct, which has been instilled in all beings since time immemorial can not be done. Throughout history altruistic socialism has failed.
Even on a much smaller scale like just two people, there is always the struggle for supremacy.


The problem with an economic policy of  unsuppressed  survival of the fittest  is that you end up with a moneyed and privileged elite whose lifestyle is maintained by the labour of an underprivileged and resentful proletariat. And within that moneyed elite, there  inevitably arise the twin curses of nepotism and croneyism, so the ruling class eventually ceases to be the  fittest but is merely the wealthiest. Then, just as in France in the late 18th century and and Russia in the early 20th, they wake up one morning to discover that the peasants really are revolting.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 01, 2016, 02:48:13 PM
Lax, I'll put the same question to you as I put to Kim, but I will paraphrase it.

Lax, if you had had the choice, how would you rearrange society so that it was fair and equitable for all?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Laxadanto on January 01, 2016, 03:10:45 PM
There is no foolproof way of rearranging society so it is fair and equitable for all. The peasants may have revolted but they wound up with Robespierre's reign of terror or Animal Farm. Democracy is the best system  tried so far, but majority rule without some form of legislation to protect disadvantaged minorities is not much better than an oligarchy - and once you start legislating for the disadvantaged then as Frownie pointed out - you are venturing into the realms of socialism.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 01, 2016, 03:17:43 PM
Can I take it then that you agree that our present system is the one that has a better chance than any other?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 01, 2016, 03:33:39 PM
There is no foolproof way of rearranging society so it is fair and equitable for all.

Doesn't this fall into the Liberal ideology of the greatest good for the greatest amount of people? (Mills)

The peasants may have revolted but they wound up with Robespierre's reign of terror or Animal Farm. Democracy is the best system  tried so far, but majority rule without some form of legislation to protect disadvantaged minorities is not much better than an oligarchy - and once you start legislating for the disadvantaged then as Frownie pointed out - you are venturing into the realms of socialism.

The basic nuts and bolts as i understand it is that Liberal ideology espouses individual autonomy/responsibility whereas Labor Philosophy is control over everyone with no one needing to be responsible for themselves and chained to the whims of the govt.

In my opinion, whilstever anyone is reliant on the govt then they don't have true freedom. Some might think they do, but not really.

Thus, I like the model we currently have, individual autonomy tempered by protections for those unable to take care of themselves. I like the idea that those who wish can transcend social and economical barriers and not have ones potential curtailed.

FROWNIE - interested in why you consider our schooling to be socialist ideology. Schools aren't set up to produce the same result for everyone. Their purpose is as a sorting house for society, a filter to determine who will fill which roles in society during their adult years.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Laxadanto on January 01, 2016, 04:15:09 PM


Thus, I like the model we currently have, individual autonomy tempered by protections for those unable to take care of themselves. I like the idea that those who wish can transcend social and economical barriers and not have ones potential curtailed.


But let's not forget it is a system which can accommodates either a  Labor or Conservative Government, and the reason it works is because both sides are constrained by the will of the people. If either side moves too far in either direction the electorate can throw it out at the next election.

To answer your question, Poddy, yes I agree. I have already said that democracy is the best system we have tried so far. (even a commune has to be run democratically or it will eventually collapse) Who knows,though,  in the future someone may come up with a better system. 
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 01, 2016, 04:21:57 PM


Thus, I like the model we currently have, individual autonomy tempered by protections for those unable to take care of themselves. I like the idea that those who wish can transcend social and economical barriers and not have ones potential curtailed.


But let's not forget it is a system which can accommodates either a  Labor or Conservative Government, and the reason it works is because both sides are constrained by the will of the people. If either side moves too far in either direction the electorate can throw it out at the next election.

Yes, I have said as much before on this forum. I do believe that we need both ideologies. The Liberal ideology does need to be tempered with Labor's. I like the Liberal ideology better but accept that our society really does need a periodic break from it and appreciate the protection for those unable to fend for themselves that a Labor framework provides.

To answer your question, Poddy, yes I agree. I have already said that democracy is the best system we have tried so far. (even a commune has to be run democratically or it will eventually collapse) Who knows,though,  in the future someone may come up with a better system.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 01, 2016, 04:49:54 PM
FROWNIE - interested in why you consider our schooling to be socialist ideology

 public funded state schooling (plus the millions given to assist private schools) is definite social policy (socialism)
the comparison you give between labor and liberal ideology is incorrect . theory is one thing, practice is another . . the libs aren't libertarian , they espouse some libertarian ideals in opinion pieces but never actually put them into practice . the post is based on a false premise.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 01, 2016, 05:10:25 PM
FROWNIE - interested in why you consider our schooling to be socialist ideology

 public funded state schooling (plus the millions given to assist private schools) is definite social policy (socialism)
t

It is only govt funded though because it is compulsory. Why is it compulsory? So that every child goes through the sorting house to work out their positions in a functional society. To get as many as possible into a position that they can operate autonomously and minimize those who will need tighter frameworks of support and government expenditure.

If the govt expected all outcomes to be the same, they wouldn't allow for private schools to exist, far less fund them. In the public system at least, they can pretend that "all animals are equal" but by funding the private system, they go that extra step to include (but some are more equal than others" (Thanks Orwell) (and this was extremely evident in the school hall debacle)

" they espouse some libertarian ideals in opinion pieces but never actually put them into practice"

I disagree. Admittedly, I have only studied Liberalism as it applies to the Law and Education/Sociology, rather than strictly from the current Liberal party platform, but there is no doubt in my mind that our general society primarily operates on Liberal ideologies. or are you going to tell me that meritocracy and capitalism are socialist frameworks?

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 01, 2016, 05:17:50 PM
 let me know when you refute what i said cheers as so far it isn't happening  :)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 01, 2016, 05:19:19 PM
My experience of unionised wages and conditions. They limit autonomy. They prevent people (the average worker) from transcending social and economic barriers.

These employment laws - they limit a person's income and potential to generate revenue by restricting the hours that they want to work.

A 38 hour week for a set wage. Can't work more than the 38 hours because then you cost more money (penalty rates) and an employer prefers to employ someone else rather than allow a person to earn as much as they want to and are prepared to work for.

Social control and placing a ceiling on a person's ability to generate their desired amount of revenue. Thank goodness we have an alternative and the potential for individual autonomy for those who desire it.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 01, 2016, 05:20:39 PM
let me know when you refute what i said cheers as so far it isn't happening  :)

so what do you believe the purpose of schools to be?

How do you believe that schools are a socialist institution when neither the input or output results in the same outcome for each individual?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 01, 2016, 05:22:58 PM
 what has that to do with the ethos behind funding them ?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 01, 2016, 05:24:07 PM
what has that to do with the ethos behind funding them ?

why do they fund them? (according to you)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 01, 2016, 05:27:46 PM
 they fund them according to the socialist mantra of education for all .   :)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 01, 2016, 05:30:06 PM
''How do you believe that schools are a socialist institution when neither the input or output results in the same outcome for each individual?''

 i think you are talking soviet fascism there , it isn't and never was socialism . some liked and misappropriated the word .  :)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 01, 2016, 05:31:33 PM
I think mean the indoctrination and brainwashing of all to perpetuate the dumbing down trend
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 01, 2016, 05:31:59 PM
 just like polka " i lived in a communist state '' well no, you didn't . they used the name but practiced fascist social policies in fact.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 01, 2016, 05:32:43 PM
they fund them according to the socialist mantra of education for all .   :)

No, they don't. (Holmes, Hughes and julian, 2009).

What's your source?

The socialist mantra would be EQUAL education for all. But even you have realized that that just isn't so. Education is the ultimate meritocracy - hardly a socialist framework.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 01, 2016, 05:32:53 PM
I think mean the indoctrination and brainwashing of all to perpetuate the dumbing down trend

thats how abbotts australia operates  :)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 01, 2016, 05:36:12 PM
Allow me to put the same question to you as I put to Lax.

Frownie, if you had had the choice, how would you rearrange society so that it was fair and equitable for all?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 01, 2016, 05:36:33 PM
I think mean the indoctrination and brainwashing of all to perpetuate the dumbing down trend

thats how abbotts australia operates  :)

LOL, it was the Gillard Govt who created the National Curriculum. Have you spent any time looking at the National Curriculum? Have you spent ANY time considering the covert curriculum entrenched into Labor's National Curriculum?

ROFLMAO

brainwashing and dumbing down - yep - they get a 10/10 for that.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 01, 2016, 05:37:38 PM
they fund them according to the socialist mantra of education for all .   :)

No, they don't. (Holmes, Hughes and julian, 2009).

What's your source?

The socialist mantra would be EQUAL education for all. But even you have realized that that just isn't so. Education is the ultimate meritocracy - hardly a socialist framework.

 you make the usual mistake of assuming all socialists think and act alike .   ;)
listen , if the state funds something like educaton and health that's socialism . firefighters. police all state -funded .  they are publicly funded ? get it ? i don't think you do .
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 01, 2016, 05:38:56 PM
Allow me to put the same question to you as I put to Lax.

Frownie, if you had had the choice, how would you rearrange society so that it was fair and equitable for all?

 i find hypotheticals a pain. they are not at all useful .
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 01, 2016, 05:39:04 PM
so, our roads are as a result of socialist values, then?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 01, 2016, 05:42:16 PM
Allow me to put the same question to you as I put to Lax.

Frownie, if you had had the choice, how would you rearrange society so that it was fair and equitable for all?

 i find hypotheticals a pain. they are not at all useful .

but you seem quite happy to pass judgement on how those who do control society do their jobs.

PODDS - do you really need to ask frownie that question? Unions. Unions. Social control. That's the answer.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 01, 2016, 05:45:47 PM
So Frownie you have no idea how you would rearrange society and prefer to leave it up to government, as long as it is a Leftie government, bit like Shorten, "I don't know what se said but a fully support what she said". Yep, typical Leftie ideology
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 01, 2016, 05:50:36 PM
I am glad that teaching institutions don't find hypothesis a pain
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 01, 2016, 05:53:05 PM
So Frownie you have no idea how you would rearrange society and prefer to leave it up to government, as long as it is a Leftie government, bit like Shorten, "I don't know what se said but a fully support what she said". Yep, typical Leftie ideology

   the question as you posed it is crap .. you know full well i won't write a 20 page rundown for you . being disingenuous (as cheers is) is only good for short-term gratification , it doesn't lead to a resolution.  what you Both need to do is provide some material that proves me wrong .  I'm happy to wait .
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 01, 2016, 06:00:37 PM
So Frownie you have no idea how you would rearrange society and prefer to leave it up to government, as long as it is a Leftie government, bit like Shorten, "I don't know what se said but a fully support what she said". Yep, typical Leftie ideology

   the question as you posed it is crap .. you know full well i won't write a 20 page rundown for you . being disingenuous (as cheers is) is only good for short-term gratification , it doesn't lead to a resolution.  what you Both need to do is provide some material that proves me wrong .  I'm happy to wait .

How am i being disingenuous?

I have provided examples of why i disagree with your opinion. I attempt to answer those questions which you ask, yet you never answer mine and instead just make comments to avoid discussion of a different viewpoint.

It's not necessarily about reaching a resolution, it is about understanding each other's perspectives.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 01, 2016, 06:04:01 PM
 you're know -nothing bagging of gillards ed policies is a well laid out and reasoned argument ?
 i prefer not to use the ''LOL'
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 01, 2016, 06:11:59 PM
you threw in Abbott!

Besides, it is a valid point, have you seen the new curriculum?

You accuse Abbott of brain washing and dumbing down when the central vehicle to mold developing and future adult's minds is a product of the Gillard government, and as yet, you have given no indication of whether you have even looked at it.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Laxadanto on January 01, 2016, 06:38:02 PM
Socialism is defined as: a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Capitalism is defined as: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

Clearly there exists  a wide scale of degree between these two extremes and it is as silly to accuse anyone left of centre of espousing capitalism as it is to accusing anyone right of centre of espousing unfettered capitalism.

Good government, it seems to me, should steer a moderate course between the two, leaving room for private enterprise while acknowledging that some 'industries' such as health and education need to be regulated by the government and available on a needs basis to the entire community.

There is a well known line from a song "If living was a thing that money could buy, then the rich would live and the poor would die." And in a purely capitalist society, with no public health system, that is exactly what would happen.  The same applies to education, if there were no public schools then only the rich would get an education. That doesn't mean there is no  place at all in these 'industries' for private enterprise. Private Schools are quite free to'brainwash' their students with religious ideology and Private Hospitals may refuse  to perform abortions or house family planning clinics.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 01, 2016, 06:52:45 PM
Aye, therein lies the rub "Good government, it seems to me, should steer a moderate course between the two".
There is never a consensus of opinion of what the "moderate course" is
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Laxadanto on January 01, 2016, 08:13:18 PM
That's why we have an election every few years.
 
Mind you, there are some among us (on both sides of the great divide) who are so ruled by blind prejudice that, however much they might deny it,  if you twisted their arm would be forced to admit that what they really want is a one party state - of their own particular political persuasion of course.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 01, 2016, 08:16:30 PM
heck, the last 6 years, we haven't even had to wait for an election to get a new PM
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Laxadanto on January 01, 2016, 08:20:03 PM
 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 01, 2016, 08:23:33 PM
Lax, I think that they would regret getting what they wished for, a one party state - of their own particular political persuasion of course, in a very short period of time. Dictatorships have a less chance of success that even socialism
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on January 02, 2016, 08:51:17 AM
Don't tell that to frown, he thinks socialism is the bees knees. Has nothing but disgust for a democratic system.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 02, 2016, 12:36:06 PM
Don't tell that to frown, he thinks socialism is the bees knees. Has nothing but disgust for a democratic system.

 you like the other ignoramus (es) here are too stupid to realise ours is a social democracy .
 another example . we have a state-funded fire service city and country .  socialism.
 compare it to the old private fire brigades ..if you don't pay a subscription  your'e house burns down  :)
 older western cities like new york had private fire companies and if your house didn't have the right tin/enamel sign outside (very collectible) they wouldn't help .
that's the basic difference . so private brigade stiff .. it burns, publicly-funded brigade (socialist approach) they save the house.  :)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 02, 2016, 12:48:19 PM
don't we pay a fire levy? I'm sure i read that on my rates or something.

and what about the ambos? do they operate on a socialist approach or as a private entity?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 02, 2016, 12:55:05 PM
don't we pay a fire levy? I'm sure i read that on my rates or something.

and what about the ambos? do they operate on a socialist approach or as a private entity?

 we pay a fire levy . nothing like a private company would charge . the other thing being if you don't pay the fire levy they still put the fire out.  :)

 state anbulance /paramedics use are state funded so .. :)  St John and others may have private ambulance services , i don't know the current state of play there.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 02, 2016, 01:02:31 PM
haha, down the bottom of a street is a fire station. Next door to that was a scout hall. The Scout Hall burned down cos the fireys were out on another call.

But I get your point. The above is just one of those ironic things, You would think being next door to a fire station would mean some help in the case of a fire...

Here in Qld we always had to pay an ambo subscription. You could still use them without being a member, but the bill would apparently be huge. These days we pay a levy on our Electric bills, so we are all sort of covered compulsorily.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Laxadanto on January 02, 2016, 02:02:59 PM
OH and I have recently helped an old friend move into a care home. He is a lovely old chap but what would once have been described as 'just a little bit simple.' He was a widower with no children and no family in Australia, solely dependent on an aged pension and living in State Housing. It set me wondering how people in his situation would have managed in the days before pensions.
 
In England the first 'pensions' act was passed in 1908 in by A Liberal government, which in the context of the time meant  centralist, but  probably still right leaning. It certainly wasn't a Socialist  or even Labour Government.
 
I'm not sure when or how  it happened in Australia, but if it was pre Federation, then it would have been state by state. I haven't done any research into the political bent of the government(s) that introduced it (though I suspect one or two of the States at least would have been more left of centre than the English Liberal Party) but since the idea of paying a living wage to those not  longer working is clearly a socialist concept, it might be worth a discussion. 
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 02, 2016, 02:28:59 PM
 My point doesn't rely on a party or political grouping , just the sentiment behind it . The party that introduced a measure doesn't define it. The fact is that these policies are social policies for the betterment of society , and the inconvenience of the policies being socialist (to some). When i hear the dismay from conservatives at the idea that things they take for granted are socialist by nature i can't help but laugh at their ignorance. I think they must be reading deliberately deceptive re-writes of our political landscape  :)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 02, 2016, 02:43:31 PM
NSW residents charged 51% of the actual cost of ambulance service. Govt subsidises the rest.
Call out fee $349.00 plus $3.15 per km or part thereof. Km's from Ambulance station to patients location to hospital and back to base ambulance station.
Excluding pensioners/concession card holders ( and a few others)

Health fund members covered for ambulance costs.
Can get ambulance cover only too.

Fire levy added to home/contents insurance?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Laxadanto on January 02, 2016, 04:23:23 PM
My point doesn't rely on a party or political grouping , just the sentiment behind it . The party that introduced a measure doesn't define it. The fact is that these policies are social policies for the betterment of society , and the inconvenience of the policies being socialist (to some). When i hear the dismay from conservatives at the idea that things they take for granted are socialist by nature i can't help but laugh at their ignorance. I think they must be reading deliberately deceptive re-writes of our political landscape  :)

I think that's the point I'm trying to make, Frownie. Human beings are social animals and what benefits society as a whole, usually benefits the individuals within that society also. I think it's called common sense.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 02, 2016, 08:06:06 PM
The problems start when the masses are attempted to be homogenised into an equal coffee coloured mass of featureless, textureless goo.
Taking equality to the nth degree restricts development and intelligence,
 
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Laxadanto on January 02, 2016, 10:43:46 PM
The people have brown faces — besides, there are so many of them! Are they really the same flesh as yourself? Do they even have names? Or are they merely a kind of undifferentiated brown stuff, about as individual as bees or coral insects? (George Orwell)
He was describing Marrakesh under French Colonial rule, but I guess the sentiment is much the same.

In the same essay, he made another interesting observation, after describing a troop of Sengalese army conscripts marching past;
But there is one thought which every white man (and in this connection it doesn't matter twopence if he calls himself a Socialist) thinks when he sees a black army marching past. ‘How much longer can we go on kidding these people? How long before they tum their guns in the other direction?’
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: iapetus_rocks on January 03, 2016, 01:23:50 AM
A tardy reply to Cheers who wrote

"My experience of unionised wages and conditions. They limit autonomy. They prevent people (the average worker) from transcending social and economic barriers."

My experience is rather different. My union fought to gain me a living wage and preserve my autonomy as an employee rather than as an abject, exploited slave.

They acted to guarantee a certain minimum of conditions such as two days off per week and a quota of paid annual recreation leave as well as a little time off per year to cover illness

"These employment laws - they limit a person's income and potential to generate revenue by restricting the hours that they want to work."

You're talking about the restrictions based on trading hours, restrictions on employers, not on employees,  aren't you? not about the hours which an employee may work (which as far  I know, remain unregulated)

"A 38 hour week for a set wage. Can't work more than the 38 hours because then you cost more money (penalty rates) and an employer prefers to employ someone else rather than allow a person to earn as much as they want to and are prepared to work for."

An employee can work for as many hours in the week as the employer is willing to pay him/her for.
It's just that after that 38 hrs, a higher rate of pay is required under the law. This is to protect the workers from exploitation by their bosses. it's a matter of legislated fairness.


"Social control and placing a ceiling on a person's ability to generate their desired amount of revenue."

You're still talking about the employers; about the owners of a business, not about employees. (but then, you're a business owner and not an employee, aren't you?)

"Thank goodness we have an alternative and the potential for individual autonomy for those who desire it."

 But surely you don't mean to advocate support for the black market economy where desperate people work cash in hand for a reduced wage? or, quelle horreur, engage in dealing drugs or selling stolen cars in order to make ends meet?


An employer's perspective is so very different to that of their employee.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 09:48:28 AM
A prompt response to Rocks, I have been both an employee and an employer.

It is because of the limitations placed on me as an employee that I became an employer.

Your inference that I advocate for a black market and cash in hand economy is offensive. Nothing that I wrote or believe gives rise to that assumption that you have fabricated to fit your paradigm.

It's people who display the attitude that you have who give employees a bad reputation and stifles their individual autonomy and financial freedom.

Example: When I was an employee, I wanted to work more than my 38 hours a week in order to generate more money for myself. However, because I then cost my employer time and three quarters, he chose not to employ me, but another employee who could do the same job for the regular wage.

Your mindset and mentality blames the employer for that. I however understand that this makes good business sense. If the money was coming from your pocket, what would you do? Pay almost double to get the same job done? If you needed a plumber, would you employ the one who quoted you $200 or $350? If you wanted to purchase a toaster, assuming they were the same brand etc, would you purchase the one from KMart for $100, or the one from Myer for $175?

Instead, I had to have a second job at another place which meant extra travel time, extra uniform changes (and all the dramas of conflicting shifts, the need to deal with 2 lots of Human Resources and admins etc all eating into my available free time until such time as I could negotiate my own wages and a salaried position.

Oh, and the worst place i ever worked? A place that did stick to the 8 hour shift mentality. It promoted a work force of clockwatchers who cared only about themselves and not their fellow employees. No incentive to work at any particular pace. No incentive to finish a job (or even start a new one) as they knew that their shift would soon end and the next person could just pick up their slack.

This meant that the only people who would work there were those who were lazy and crap at their jobs, those who had no pride in their work or loyalty to their employer or care for his reputation, so no decent senior staff to teach and train the junior ones which in turn hurt them. When there are only cowboys to learn from, it is hard to learn how to be good at your chosen career.

In addition to the harm that clock watching causes a career is the additional harm caused by the limited potential for income.

Even now after working on both sides of the coin, I fail to see why it should cost an employer $10 an hour at 9am to have a certain task completed and $17 an hour at 6pm for the same task. And i fail to see why I should earn more for a job at the beginning of my work day then for one "at the end".
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 09:52:37 AM
Toasters are around $15 or less in Kmart...made by workers in third world  countries like Bangladesh,  earning a $1? a month and working in poor conditions most likely.

Whereas an expensive European brand toaster, some are  brands still made in European countries ( better wages and conditions and quality of product) hence the price difference.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 09:58:03 AM
Employees get paid overtime for a good reason...
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on January 03, 2016, 10:04:27 AM
Good on you cheers. Well said.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 10:23:40 AM
More for Rocks

a real life example of a clock watching exploitive employee.

I had an employee, an apprentice. He was paid the award wage including penalties when appropriate. In addition to his required lunch breaks etc, he was also provided with morning and afternoon teas whilst I was paying him to work, (food provided by me, where he would sit down for a good half hour and read the paper etc, where all others would take only enough time to eat, have a cup of tea and go to the toilet etc) and a hot breakfast every shift. He was also allowed to take home left overs at the end of the day and received cost price product for him and his family. Oh, and he could pop out the back for a cigarette when he wanted, or if he needed longer for lunch break to pay some bills oir whatever, was never an issue. Oh and sometimes if he needed to leave a bit early to catch the bank or the motor registry etc, we never docked his wages. When his car broke down, we even provided him with a company vehicle until he could get his car back on the road.

One day, he worked 15 minutes overtime (they just got an unexpected late rush and didn't get finished in time). He wrote this on his pay sheet. By accident, this was missed and he was paid his regular pay. He did not approach me or the pay lady to address this oversight, instead he went straight to the apprenticeship board, who then bought in the wage people for every employee we had - they found no other instances, but it cost me a LOT of time and a LOT of money to facilitate this process.

Fair enough, we had underpaid this apprentice on one occasion, and by 15 minutes, and we would have rectified this had we been given the chance.

The result of that though was that since he wanted to be a clock watcher and work so strictly by the award...

From then on, he worked exactly 8 hours a day, strictly by the award. No additional tea breaks, no breakfast or other food supplied by me. If he was late, I docked his pay. If he needed to leave early - I docked his pay. No more discounted meat and food to take home for his family either and certainly no free company car or assistance in getting to work. When his car broke down, he now walked or caught a bus. if he had a sick day, as per legal requirements, i required a medical certificate (funny how he was sick so often before I cracked down on this) Oh, and I made sure he was never rostered onto any penalty rate shifts. No Saturday or Sunday work ever (and this was a usual part of weekly wage as it helped him to earn more money, so his wage dropped a fair bit too). if he needed to go to the bank. Tough. he did it on his own time, not mine. if he wanted to pick up a mate from the airport during work hours? Tough. he did it on his own time and using his own transportation. Instead of eating several meals a day for free, he now had to bring his own from home or buy it himself, eating into the time he had for his lunch break, which coincidentally was right on lunch time when the outside food court etc was always packed, so the lines were long and the wait times longer.

previously, we had done our best to allow him his lunch break whenever he wanted (there were some times you just can't, but on the whole, it was pretty flexible) so that if he wanted to do something such as run an errand or make an appointment he could. However, after that, we stuck strictly by the books. He had his lunch break exactly 5 hours after he started and was expected back, at his work station ready to work exactly 60 minutes after he started his break. No more, rocking back up when he felt like it and getting dressed on MY time, he now was expected to do all that on HIS time. An employer does not have to pay someone to get dressed for work. Oh, and after that, he also had to supply his own uniforms and launder and maintain them to my strict requirements. had to buy his own equipment too, as i was not legally obligated to supply his personal knives etc or his specialized footwear



And ya know what? Everything was by the book and according to the law, exactly how he wanted it. And in the end, it saved me a fortune, so i suppose you are right, Rocks, clock watchers are good.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 10:35:51 AM
One example from one person? Doesn't represent a whole workforce.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on January 03, 2016, 10:52:03 AM
I think it does. I was an employer and an employee and the unions came in to try to blackmail the owners and to gouge money from employees who didn't want to join.
Unions have had their day.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 11:08:03 AM
I doubt that a week goes by when i don't get approached by someone wanting work experience. Just a chance, a foot in the door to get some skills for their resume to help them to get a job in the industry.

The thing is, I am not allowed to let these people get some work experience unless i pay him. I am very happy to provide my staff to train and teach him some new skills and facilities to help a kid get some experience, or even an older person trying to change careers or increase their prospects for employment. But be buggered if i will do it if I have to pay someone so that they can do it.

it doesn't hurt me, only the person trying to gain some new skills for free. Instead, i suppose they have to go and pay for their certificate and experience at Tafe or somewhere.

This bit Big fella in the bum during his degree. he just wanted to get some work experience in the industry of his chosen uni degree, to help his employment prospects once he graduated. But guess what, he struggled. Only one person wanted to provide him opportunity to gain work experience, and that was only because he was a member of our community, so he did give him work experience with the wages that were required and a whole heap more, (God love him, he is a very special man), but without that experience and reference, I doubt he would have had much chance at a job upon graduation.

As it was, the opportunity to work there for 'work experience" allowed the man to decide that Big Fella was the kind of employee that he wanted and that he could accommodate him within his business, so he ended up getting a full time job there upon graduation. Something he would never have achieved had he not had the opportunity to demonstrate his abilities, especially with no experience in the industry on his resume.

Gotta love those employment laws don't you? My kid got lucky, how many others miss out because they don't have connections?

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 11:19:54 AM
There are employers prosecuted for giving work to young people as "non paid work experience." The employer just gets new young people to do free work experience all the time (i.e. free labour). That is why we have laws to prevent worker exploitation.

There is also the issue of insurance for these workers. If sent on work experience by school, through TAFE etc..those institutions cover th insurance aspect.

Sydney Restaraunt/cafe owners are notorious for paying hospitality workers cash ( below award rate, no penal time), no payg deducted payments to ATO .  Taking advantage  of visa holders ( including working holiday ones)  and anoyne really who is desperate to earn money for food, accommodation so they have to accept the dodgy pay.
Not sure about other cities/areas.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on January 03, 2016, 11:20:06 AM
Far too many cheers and the other "union" reg is the childcare industry where you had to have a uni degree to mind infants and also hire more people per child. Now child care is priced out of the park and we can thank uniions, OHS and every other union mandated regulation.
Time to get rid of unions in the 21st century, there are many bodies now that look after workers.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 11:24:17 AM
I would expect qualified staff , high standards, the best WHS rules in childcare centres. Children are the most precious thing there is - nothing is too good for their care.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on January 03, 2016, 11:27:58 AM
At $170 per day? rubbish. This is just another Labor whipping boy, exploit children Education and medical, it's their go to default position. 
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 11:30:34 AM
You wouldn't say rubbish if you had children that you needed childcare for.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on January 03, 2016, 11:33:25 AM
How do you know? I certainly wouldn't be able to afford $170 per day along with many other young mothers. We can thank Labor and the unions for pricing childcare out of reach of many families.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 11:34:52 AM
Labor?

Yesterday

 
Child care: Government downplays impact of predicted 14 per cent price rise by July 2017

..."Overall though, we are going, in our reforms, to apply an hourly fee limit of $11.50."

Mr Birmingham has promised a cap in terms of subsidised cost per hourly care, as well as streamlined subsidies for parents, as part of the changes.

Mr Birmingham said the Government's child care overhaul, which comes into force in 18 months' time, would put "downward pressure on prices".

"I know that there are real cost pressures out there which is why we are applying a new rate of childcare subsidy that we hope to get through the Parliament this year," he said.

But his Labor counterpart Kate Ellis said the changes would be detrimental, and the predicted increases would make child care too expensive for some families.

"We know that many families will simply not be able to afford the cost of child care," she said.

She said the Government needed to take action to stop the increases as soon as possible.

"There will be absolutely nothing which is done to assist families until mid-2017, and even when the Government's reforms come into effect, modelling shows one in four families will be further worse off," she said.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-02/child-care-costs-to-increase-by-14pc-by-mid-2017/7064482

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on January 03, 2016, 11:38:19 AM
but....it was labor who loaded up childcare with all the bells and whistles, all the new regulations and all the uni qualified workers. What government would be game to cut back on all this padding? a very brave one imo. No clothes .....again
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 11:39:26 AM
One example from one person? Doesn't represent a whole workforce.

i bet it represents a fair few, i have many more examples, especially from work colleagues when i was an employee.

Gosh, how many people visit social media sites or take personal phone calls etc during their work hours whilst being paid to do work for their employer? I've even seen them bragging about it on CS! using employer resources for personal use... and being paid to do so.

LOL. one of the hotel chains i worked in (the only 8 hour job I ever had) i was in the main kitchen for the dinner shift. The official closing time for the restaurant was 10:30, so we were always rostered on so that our shift finished at 11:30.

So many days, we were finished much earlier. In hotels, you have kitchen hands and cleaners, so you only have to cook, not clean up very much afterwards etc. many week nights through winter especially, we would be finished by 9pm. but still 2 1 /2 hours of work to go.

Now, some of us would go to another department such as pastry or bakery, or banquets if there were any on, who always had plenty of work at that time of the night) or if the KPs were a bit behind, get in and help them out - whilst waiting to see if any other orders came in but the majority went down to the Garde Mangere kitchen and sat on the benches reading news papers or playing cards etc until their shift ended - all whilst being paid to work.

or the production boys, they were rostered on to finish at 5pm. So come about 4pm, they slowed down to make sure they didn't have to start a new task before their shift ended

LOL, I have even seen chefs there walk out half way through preparing a customer's order!

but hey, that's the award wage mentality, and it seems it is ok for an employee to exploit an employer, but when an employer asks an employee to do the job for which they are employed? They're the bad guys?

And as i said previously, it meant that the staff had a bad reputation so no senior chefs etc worth any salt would go there, or if they did, they wouldn't stay for long, so this hurt the junior staff as they had no one of any quality to learn from and improve their skills.

Sure, it was convenient for me, because I had kids by then, but it cost me so much in career opportunities and stagnated my learning. made it hard too cos they did stick to the 'rules". if we hadn't clocked out within 15 minutes of our shift end, a security guard came looking for us LOL, so couldn't shower after work on premises etc, couldn't grab a coffee on site before going home or wait for someone else to finish work in the employee canteen (especially effected those who car pooled) but it also meant, as an employee i lost the flexibility needed when one has a family. It meant I had to employ nannies instead of using child care, it meant if my kid or the nanny was sick and i had to stay home, or be late for work and lose pay etc no flexibility at all. They stuck by the rules, but the person it impacted the most was me and of course, my family.

In those days i smoked, so no quick ciggy breaks for me, had to wait until my designated break time, no personal phone calls, so if the nanny needed to reach me, they couldn't, I wasn't even allowed to take the phone call telling me my grandmother had died. I was passed on the message and allowed to leave when my shift finished.

meh - worst job of my life and i couldn't get out of there quick enough.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 11:43:52 AM
but....it was labor who loaded up childcare with all the bells and whistles, all the new regulations and all the uni qualified workers. What government would be game to cut back on all this padding? a very brave one imo. No clothes .....again

The current Govt is implementing childcare reforms being introduced July 20167.. which will leave families worse off, not able to go to childcare centres of their choice....no getting away from that.

Going to turn a blind eye to that are you because it doesn't suit your argument?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 11:45:27 AM
*2017
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 11:47:16 AM
Ask employed posters here their views on using social nedia while working?

Me, I wouldn't dream of it.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Laxadanto on January 03, 2016, 11:48:29 AM
I reckon The Grapes Of Wrath should be required reading for anyone who says we don't need Unions.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 11:57:46 AM
I have worked in office admin jobs mostly..private and public service. Anyone being regularly late, taking too long at lunch, making private phone calls at work would get pulled up for it...they wouldn't have got away with it long term.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 12:03:37 PM
I think it does. I was an employer and an employee and the unions came in to try to blackmail the owners and to gouge money from employees who didn't want to join.
Unions have had their day.

Yep, where my husband worked, union membership was compulsory (well it is across the industry regardless of place of employment). The only time he asked them for help, they told him to see a $300 an hour lawyer at his expense LOL

(He had been injured at work, work's fault, not his as was proven and admitted to in writing, and he was getting worker's comp etc and then when he was being rehabilitated, he started back working one hour a week and increasing until he got the clearance to return to full time work. (This was over a 12 month period, so it's not like they had no notice of his progress and when he would be cleared to return to work etc)

The day he fronted up for his job, he was told that not only wasn't he getting the promotion he had been given just before his accident, but that they had also given his old job away, so couldn't return to that either. However, out of the goodness of their hearts because of his 13 years service with an exemplary work record, they gave him another job in another department at a $60K per year wage drop. ($85 K wage drop from the position he was promoted to before the accident, but he never got the chance to start. He had just done his annual appraisal where they gave him the promotion and then got injured)

he went to the union for assistance to get his old job back who passed him onto a lawyer that cost him $300 per hour.

Yep, unions are great and they help the employee so much when they really need the help, eh?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 12:18:24 PM
Toasters are around $15 or less in Kmart...made by workers in third world  countries like Bangladesh,  earning a $1? a month and working in poor conditions most likely.

Whereas an expensive European brand toaster, some are  brands still made in European countries ( better wages and conditions and quality of product) hence the price difference.

 I said the same toaster - same brand etc.

Are you saying that everyone stocks the same brands for the same prices? That everyone provides their services for the same price as the next one?

So, when you shop or procure services from say a plumber, you have no need to shop around for the best price because you believe that every goods and service providor does so at the same cost?

You would just rock into Myer and buy your Delonghi or Russel hobbs toaster and pay their prices even though Good guys or KMart etc may be cheaper? You would pay the more expensive price for the same goods?

or you would buy your apples (or whatever_ from Coles even if Woolies had the same product for half the price?

Oh please....

me thinks someone is full of ummm err - well you know/

and if you are not so discerning as to where and how you allocate your money, then your financial literacy is appalling and needs to be pitied.

So which is it, Kim? Are you full of odoriferous brown stuff that sticks to your shoes or do you lack good financial literacy and decision making?

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 12:43:42 PM
I said different brands, price range  of toasters..made in different countries - to point out exploited workers can be used to produce low cost appliances. No unions to protect their rights eh?

A $150 toaster in Knart isn't very realistic either.

Kmart has been exposed for buying goods from factories in Bangladesh that exploits their workers a year or so ago.

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 12:56:31 PM
it was an example, Kim. A hypothetical. Are your comprehension skills really THAT limited?

I have no words.

I asked you a question about toasters using a hypothetical situation and you respond by providing an irrelevant scenario without answering anything. LOL

heck, if it sits better with you, pretend I said lawn mower or lounge suite, accountant or plumber, electrician. The same principle applies.

Then when you transfer that principle over to the work place, why would an employer be compelled to pay more for a service when they could get the same service for a much cheaper price (whilst still abiding by Australian Law) Why is it only the consumer or employee that is permitted to seek the best value for money?

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Laxadanto on January 03, 2016, 01:12:04 PM
Why is it only the consumer or employee that is permitted to seek the best value for money?

For an employer, the best 'value for money'  is a worker whose  labour gives you the best return for the money you pay him, not the one who will work for the least money. You pay peanuts - you get monkeys.
The same principle applies with Governments or councils who put public works programmes out to tender and uncritically award the job to the cheapest one.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 01:24:04 PM
Why is it only the consumer or employee that is permitted to seek the best value for money?

For an employer, the best 'value for money'  is a worker whose  labour gives you the best return for the money you pay him,

yes

not the one who will work for the least money. You pay peanuts - you get monkeys.

Oh, so an employee is only expected to work at 100% of their ability when they are being paid penalty rates?


The same principle applies with Governments or councils who put public works programmes out to tender and uncritically award the job to the cheapest one.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 01:48:47 PM
Why is it only the consumer or employee that is permitted to seek the best value for money?

For an employer, the best 'value for money'  is a worker whose  labour gives you the best return for the money you pay him, not the one who will work for the least money. You pay peanuts - you get monkeys.
The same principle applies with Governments or councils who put public works programmes out to tender and uncritically award the job to the cheapest one.

I am never ever going to pay someone $60 an hour to peel potatoes or wash dishes. That's why i employ a head chef and general kitchen personnel. My head chef is remunerated for the skills that he brings to my business and that i require of him, and my potato peelers are treated the same and if they need longer than their rostered shifts to peel those potatoes, then i will bring in additional employees to peel the potatoes for $24 an hour instead of $48. It's about wise allocation of resources.

If it were your money, what would you do? Pay someone $48 (or $60) to peel a potato when you can pay someone else $24 to do the same?

Now, the employee may want to earn that $24 an hour, but he is denied that opportunity because of the inflexibility of the wage system, so he misses out and instead has to go elsewhere if he chooses to increase or supplement his income. His potential earning capacity is capped and limited, and people blame the employer for this? This is the employer's fault?

And having two jobs at different locations is extremely inconvenient for an employee when if an opportunity to get the amount of hours they wanted to work were available at one location. But I spose that is the employer's fault because they don't want to pay someone $48 an hour to peel potatoes...

Bastards.

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 03, 2016, 01:53:12 PM
 https://www.google.com.au/search?q=industrial+potato+peeler&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiotpen0YzKAhUOwo4KHSsiBMYQsAQIIg&biw=1366&bih=618
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 02:13:12 PM
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=industrial+potato+peeler&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiotpen0YzKAhUOwo4KHSsiBMYQsAQIIg&biw=1366&bih=618

Matey, I've got one, but I still need someone to load it and you still have to cut out the eyes and imperfections by hand of every potato and someone still has to monitor it to make sure the right water pressure is maintained and someone still has to store the peeled potatoes correctly. and if a potato is left in there for too long, it is ground into oblivion (many an occasion where big potatoes were put in and left in too long only to be reduced to pebbles - thus eroding food costs etc) And someone still has to perform quality control and identify any odd shaped potatoes that are not completely peeled.

besides, it was one example of one task. I am sure that you got the point.

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 03, 2016, 02:22:33 PM
Lax, some of those monkeys you speak of truly believe that they are Einstein and demand the remuneration of their fantasy
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 02:24:28 PM
it was an example, Kim. A hypothetical. Are your comprehension skills really THAT limited?

I have no words.

I asked you a question about toasters using a hypothetical situation and you respond by providing an irrelevant scenario without answering anything. LOL

heck, if it sits better with you, pretend I said lawn mower or lounge suite, accountant or plumber, electrician. The same principle applies.

Then when you transfer that principle over to the work place, why would an employer be compelled to pay more for a service when they could get the same service for a much cheaper price (whilst still abiding by Australian Law) Why is it only the consumer or employee that is permitted to seek the best value for money?

BBM

Quite the opposite?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 03, 2016, 03:13:44 PM
 poddy reckons if a person isn't too bright (a monkey) they deserve peanuts . Mr Abbott doesn't warrant even a peanut by that reckoning . a worker regardless of intellect deserves a proper wage.
If cheers cant run her non-existent restaurant without exploiting people she doesn't deserve to succeed at the non-restaurant . maybe that's what happened  :)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 03:17:35 PM
 ;)


Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 03:32:13 PM
poddy reckons if a person isn't too bright (a monkey) they deserve peanuts . Mr Abbott doesn't warrant even a peanut by that reckoning . a worker regardless of intellect deserves a proper wage.
If cheers cant run her non-existent restaurant without exploiting people she doesn't deserve to succeed at the non-restaurant . maybe that's what happened  :)

a worker, regardless of intellect, deserves the proper wage for the task they are employed to perform. Not the task that they are perhaps capable of, but the task which they are employed to perform.

and your suggestion that i exploit my staff is low, even for you.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 03, 2016, 04:08:33 PM
 anyone who underpays staff and attempts to justify it doesn't deserve to succeed . what staff ?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 04:15:58 PM
I don't underpay any staff and your inference that i do is scummy.

You and me are now done. I tried to be nice to you and tolerate your behaviour, but I'm now done.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 05:09:46 PM
I still value your posts frownland. I learn stuff from them, iapetusrocks (sp?) posts too.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on January 03, 2016, 05:24:03 PM
Personal insult is the go to from the old comrades. They'll still be singing solidarity forever when they are shovelling the dirt on their grave.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: iapetus_rocks on January 03, 2016, 07:35:03 PM
So many replies since i last posted, I don't know where to start, so I'll just answer this one from Cheers who wrote;

"Thank goodness we have an alternative and the potential for individual autonomy for those who desire it."
and then went on to say;

Your inference that I advocate for a black market and cash in hand economy is offensive. Nothing that I wrote or believe gives rise to that assumption that you have fabricated to fit your paradigm."

So, please explain just what it is you meant when you said;

"Thank goodness we have an alternative and the potential for individual autonomy for those who desire it."

What alternative (within the law) were you referring to?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: iapetus_rocks on January 03, 2016, 07:54:11 PM
I know it's an old fashioned Marxist idea, but that doesn't make it any less true.

Employers make a profit from the people whom they employ. They pay them less than their labour is worth.

Employers aren't content to earn enough to just make a decent living, but they desire to earn as damned much as they can by paying their workers as little as they can get away with. This is just the mechanics of the economic model under which we operate.

Employers stand to profit from the labour they employ by paying less than the labour is really worth.

It's an immoral system; it's unethical and morally indefensible, no matter how fast the idea is spun.

If an employer is worried that their workers are just going to be "clock watchers" then what is needed is to give the workers a real incentive to work hard.

Give those workers a share in the business so that they become stakeholders and share in the profits in a real and meaningful sense and avoid becoming exploited, poorly paid  wage slaves whose attention is drawn to the sound of the five o'clock hooter and to their next few days off.


It's a shift in philosophy; a shift of paradigm. A shift away from greed and a never to be satisfied chase after profit, towards a way of engaging employees so that they have a real interest in making a business successful.


The way it is now; employers trying to nickle and dime every last cent they can screw from their customers and their workers, it's no wonder that they have disinterested and disgruntled employees and resentful customers who drive to the shops in Holdens or Fords and watch as the business owners drive home to their palaces in Porsches or Maseratis or Mercedes.

A mathematician could look at a business and calculate the percentage profit an employer makes from the labour of their employee.

But which business owner has the courage to do that and publish the details?



Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Icyfroth on January 03, 2016, 08:01:30 PM
I still value your posts frownland. I learn stuff from them, iapetusrocks (sp?) posts too.

What a suckhole.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 08:04:15 PM
So many replies since i last posted, I don't know where to start, so I'll just answer this one from Cheers who wrote;

"Thank goodness we have an alternative and the potential for individual autonomy for those who desire it."
and then went on to say;

Your inference that I advocate for a black market and cash in hand economy is offensive. Nothing that I wrote or believe gives rise to that assumption that you have fabricated to fit your paradigm."

So, please explain just what it is you meant when you said;

"Thank goodness we have an alternative and the potential for individual autonomy for those who desire it."

What alternative (within the law) were you referring to?

A person can choose to become self employed and work as many hours as they choose in order to generate the income they desire and not be limited by the constraints of a 38 hour week.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Icyfroth on January 03, 2016, 08:13:32 PM
There's a lot of ppl begging on the streets on Sydney I noticed. The ultimate in self-employment, I reckon. No boss, no regular hours, no hassles with unpleasant colleagues. They sleep on the streets, no rent to pay and a free daily meal from the charities.

They probably make a fair bit of money too, to augment their pensions. The more successful ones have a dog with them. Who can resist?



Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 08:16:08 PM
I know it's an old fashioned Marxist idea, but that doesn't make it any less true.

Employers make a profit from the people whom they employ. They pay them less than their labour is worth.

Employers aren't content to earn enough to just make a decent living, but they desire to earn as damned much as they can by paying their workers as little as they can get away with. This is just the mechanics of the economic model under which we operate.

Employers stand to profit from the labour they employ by paying less than the labour is really worth.

It's an immoral system; it's unethical and morally indefensible, no matter how fast the idea is spun.

If an employer is worried that their workers are just going to be "clock watchers" then what is needed is to give the workers a real incentive to work hard.

You mean apart from their wages? Isn't that what they are paid for? To give 100% of their effort for the hours that they are paid to work? Or you think employees should only have to give 50% of their effort but receive a full wage? So, do they take a reduced wage during quiet or slow times when they aren't required to work at full capacity?



Give those workers a share in the business so that they become stakeholders and share in the profits in a real and meaningful sense and avoid becoming exploited, poorly paid  wage slaves whose attention is drawn to the sound of the five o'clock hooter and to their next few days off.

So, you want to pay the employees a wage for doing the job they are employed to do and also give them a share in a business which they outlay no risk or money  for? How much of a percentage do you believe a worker should be given of a business to make sure they give 100% of their effort for the hours that they are paid to work?

If the business owner takes all the risk and outlays all the money, then what percentage do you believe he should be allowed to keep?

What sort of share size do you believe to be adequate to give an employee the incentive to give 100% to their duties?


It's a shift in philosophy; a shift of paradigm. A shift away from greed and a never to be satisfied chase after profit, towards a way of engaging employees so that they have a real interest in making a business successful.


The way it is now; employers trying to nickle and dime every last cent they can screw from their customers and their workers, it's no wonder that they have disinterested and disgruntled employees and resentful customers who drive to the shops in Holdens or Fords and watch as the business owners drive home to their palaces in Porsches or Maseratis or Mercedes.

A mathematician could look at a business and calculate the percentage profit an employer makes from the labour of their employee.

But which business owner has the courage to do that and publish the details?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 08:21:00 PM
There are some small businesses where the owner would be better of in a salary job. Instead they are clearing, for example,  $60 000 p.a., working long hours 7 days a week, and have the stress of running a business.
Over 25% of self employed have no super savings.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 08:28:32 PM
There's a lot of ppl begging on the streets on Sydney I noticed. The ultimate in self-employment, I reckon. No boss, no regular hours, no hassles with unpleasant colleagues. They sleep on the streets, no rent to pay and a free daily meal from the charities.

They probably make a fair bit of money too, to augment their pensions. The more successful ones have a dog with them. Who can resist?

and there in lays one of the biggest risk for many who move from being an employee to an employer. A business owner takes on all kinds of risks and outlays all kinds of money, but never a guarantee that the business will be profitable. The workers continue to get paid their wages, regardless of how much the owner brings in. Until the owner loses the business at which time, the employee moves onto a new job with no debt and no worries whilst the business owner is potentially left with large debts etc

The first 2 months of my latest business, I didn't generate a cent (product development stage), yet i still had to pay wages and rent and utilities and product costs etc. Fortunately, by 4 months I was covering costs (the projection was 6 months) but It was 9 months before the Accountant even allowed me to draw a wage for myself 9we had anticipated 12 to 18 months), and 18 months(ish) before he gave me the go ahead to spend on non essentials. My employees didn't take less money because i wasn't earning anything or taking home less money than they were even though i was working a heck of a lot more hours than they were.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 03, 2016, 08:37:24 PM
Cheers, in the future you are going to be one of the people in the big end of town, you know the ones that have it so easy, those that Kim and Frownie like to denigrate.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 08:41:10 PM
When have I ever denigrated small, medium or large business owners???

I have a lot of respect for small business owners. Worked for one for 9 years. I know the struggles, barriers.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 08:48:53 PM
Cheers, in the future you are going to be one of the people in the big end of town, you know the ones that have it so easy, those that Kim and Frownie like to denigrate.

I hope so, Poddy, as you know, i have had a  business fail before, so there is a lot on the line for this one. but then that's not something a general employee ever has to worry about, eh?

and if people want to dis me for either - Meh, it is what it is
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 08:57:51 PM


Give those workers a share in the business so that they become stakeholders and share in the profits in a real and meaningful sense and avoid becoming exploited, poorly paid  wage slaves whose attention is drawn to the sound of the five o'clock hooter and to their next few days off.



ok, so if an employee is given a share in the business with a view to share in the profits, what happens if there are no profits? Will the employees still collect their wages? will they chip in from their wages any shortfalls the business may encounter? Will they put their house on the line if the business doesn't end up being profitable? Will they incur any debts that a business may generate as well as the profits?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Isabeller.Misspeller on January 03, 2016, 09:02:05 PM
Cheers, you seem to have a pretty low opinion of your employees and their motivation. 
I have worked for a small business operator who was going under, through no fault of anyone in the company (blame the "big end of town" if you must)  Without exception every employee of that business worked their butt off to save that enterprise because, again without exception, we believed the owners had everyone's best interest at heart.  It was a genuinely sad day when we finally closed the doors and we all cried together.
Maybe you need to look at who you employ, or how you employ them, if you're not getting that kind of support to help your business prosper.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 09:11:25 PM
ahh look, another troll

so you cried with your employer when he lost his business. tell me how that helped him?

It certainly didn't save his business for him.

How many employees forfeited their wages to try and keep the business afloat?

Apparently you folk all supported your employer, yet you still failed to help him prosper, didn't you?

And like the other trolls, how dare you make this personal and project how you believe i treat my employees and imply that i treat them improperly or have a low opinion of them.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 03, 2016, 09:19:23 PM
When I had employees and if any of them exceeded expectations and performed tasks above and beyond their call of duty they were given a bonus, it worked well. :)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Isabeller.Misspeller on January 03, 2016, 09:26:29 PM
Well since you asked, I didn't take a wage from them for the last two months I worked for them.  Another employee took them into their own home after the business went down and they lost their place.  At the end everyonewas working significant unpaid overtime to try to keep things afloat. 
There was nothing that any of us, owners included, could do in the end to save that business.  We were a casualty of Bunnings/Westfarmers.  But don't you bloody dare tell me we didn't try.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Isabeller.Misspeller on January 03, 2016, 09:30:28 PM
I'm choosing to ignore your troll reference.  It's beneath both you and me.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 09:31:05 PM
Mine get bonuses all the time. They eat for free for starters. Hot breakfast, morning and afternoon teas and lunches, If there is surplus product they can take it home and they can do their groceries etc through me and get it at wholesale and bulk prices.

but I'm a sucky employer who doesn't look after or care for my staff...
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 09:34:10 PM
I'm choosing to ignore your troll reference.  It's beneath both you and me.

No, it was warranted. You tried to imply that my employees were bad, that i treated them poorly and that i had a low opinion of them.

Most of my employees are awesome and the bad ones, well they don't last very long.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 09:38:41 PM
Well since you asked, I didn't take a wage from them for the last two months I worked for them.  Another employee took them into their own home after the business went down and they lost their place.  At the end everyonewas working significant unpaid overtime to try to keep things afloat. 
There was nothing that any of us, owners included, could do in the end to save that business.  We were a casualty of Bunnings/Westfarmers.  But don't you bloody dare tell me we didn't try.

A terrible time for you all Isabelle  :(.  Good to see the owners had the support of their loyal staff even though the outcome was bad...that support must have meant a lot to them.

Grr to Bunnings being the cause.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 09:40:23 PM
I'm choosing to ignore your troll reference.  It's beneath both you and me.

Seems to be a standard response around here when differing views are put forward.  :(
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2016, 09:42:34 PM
My family members get bonuses - high $$ ones. A free lunch wouldn't excite them  :D
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Isabeller.Misspeller on January 03, 2016, 09:50:29 PM
I suppose my point, now that I have taken a deep breath and counted to ten, is that even though employees may not have the same financial investment in small business, they often do have a significant emotional interest and are not all simply constantly watching the clock and dreaming of how they can rip their employer off. 
Make of that what you will.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 03, 2016, 10:17:17 PM
Yes, I am sure that many employees do have an emotional investment in the business. After all, it is the viability of that business that determines if they will have employment next week or not and the chance to pay their rent and food etc.

But the thing is, that emotional investment, it doesn't pay the expenses of the business and that emotional investment only lasts until the next job. It's transient. That emotional investment lasts only as long as the employer can keep the business viable and paying their wages and it costs the employee nothing and it sure doesn't help pay the bills.

Just as not all employees are bad, nor are all business owners the villains that some make them out to be simply because they dare to make a profit from their business.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: iapetus_rocks on January 03, 2016, 11:54:56 PM
Employer/business owners are gamblers. They gamble that their business might be successful and that they might make a lot more money than if they just got a job and got on with life, paying the bills and raising the kids.

People do not enter the business world for any other reason. Their primary motivation is personal profit.

Farmers don't grow crops so as to feed Australians, they grow them so they can sell them for as much money as the (export) market will bear.

Miners are the same. they are not in the business as philanthropic suppliers of jobs (that they supply jobs is incidental).

Entrepreneurs are gamblers, gambling that they can make a profit selling their stuff and make the business pay by virtue of the exploitation of their workforce (by not paying them what their labour is worth). Otherwise they wouldn't make a profit, even though they might still enjoy a good take-home wage as would their engaged and non-clock-watching employees if those employees had a share in the business.


Employers use all sorts of rationalisations to hide and to obscure their primary motivation. Unions exist in order to attempt at least in some small degree to keep the bastards honest.

There may be an emotional investment in the business by the business owners, but it's the sort of emotion which involves laughing all the way to the bank or the crocodile tears cried out to the government asking for a tax-payer funded handout when their poorly managed, non-competitive business fails.



Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: iapetus_rocks on January 04, 2016, 12:17:38 AM
You cannot expect employees to share in the emotional investment which their employers experience.

The workers know and understand that by virtue of their working for less than their labour is worth, the employers can experience the emotional delight of better housing, bigger and better cars/yachts/overseas holidays/etc.

This generates a completely different set of emotions in the workers, involving such qualities as resentment/frustration/ill-will/depression and despair.

How much is a fair profit for Business? It's as much as they can get away with, isn't it?

All this dissembling and claiming to provide jobs as if it were some sort of public service is hollow hubris.

Expand your business, increase your profits, buy your flash cars and houses and send your kids to expensive schools where they can learn to be just like you . . . and try to hide the fact that you rip off your employees and exploit their labour and plunge them into debt and hold their futures to ransom,


and then retire to bed at night in the hope that you don't perchance to dream?



Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 04, 2016, 01:19:14 AM
So? No apology from you Rocks?

I just love how you never answered any of the questions that I posed to you after you specifically addressed my post.

................

Anyway.

The thing is that anytime an employee wants to become an employer, they can. They can get as much emotional delight and all the rapturous benefits of owning a business including an income which reflects their worth and value any time that they want to.

They can take the risks, they can take the uncertainty and instability, they can take the 24/7 lifestyle where their day doesn't end just because they leave work. They can take the stress and the debt and the worry and then they too can retire to bed at night in the hope that they don't perchance to dream...

Anytime they want to, Rocks. The only thing they have to do is to decide to do it. it is they who hold their futures to ransom, it is they that sell themselves to others.

Stop blaming some for the life choices of others. People are employees because it's what they choose to do. (yes, I know there are exceptions such as disability etc)

Starting a business doesn't have to cost much money. Jim's Lawn Mowing started with a lawnmower and a street directory. 100 flyers cost less than $10. Door knocking is free.

Something else that you seem to be ignoring Rocks is that if an employee is not satisfied with their wages, if they believe that their labour is not receiving adequate remuneration, they can always leave. No one forces them to work for someone else. That is their choice.

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on January 04, 2016, 08:09:13 AM
Well done cheers and I hope your business thrives. I find it pretty disgusting that you have to defend yourself on here. I always thought hard work reaps rewards but some on here are stuck in the old union time warp and have nothing but hate for employers.

All the very best for the new year cheers. :-*
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on January 04, 2016, 08:10:41 AM
You cannot expect employees to share in the emotional investment which their employers experience.

The workers know and understand that by virtue of their working for less than their labour is worth, the employers can experience the emotional delight of better housing, bigger and better cars/yachts/overseas holidays/etc.

This generates a completely different set of emotions in the workers, involving such qualities as resentment/frustration/ill-will/depression and despair.

How much is a fair profit for Business? It's as much as they can get away with, isn't it?

All this dissembling and claiming to provide jobs as if it were some sort of public service is hollow hubris.

Expand your business, increase your profits, buy your flash cars and houses and send your kids to expensive schools where they can learn to be just like you . . . and try to hide the fact that you rip off your employees and exploit their labour and plunge them into debt and hold their futures to ransom,


and then retire to bed at night in the hope that you don't perchance to dream?

I find this post insulting and offensive.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Icyfroth on January 04, 2016, 11:40:21 AM
You cannot expect employees to share in the emotional investment which their employers experience.

The workers know and understand that by virtue of their working for less than their labour is worth, the employers can experience the emotional delight of better housing, bigger and better cars/yachts/overseas holidays/etc.

This generates a completely different set of emotions in the workers, involving such qualities as resentment/frustration/ill-will/depression and despair.

How much is a fair profit for Business? It's as much as they can get away with, isn't it?

All this dissembling and claiming to provide jobs as if it were some sort of public service is hollow hubris.

Expand your business, increase your profits, buy your flash cars and houses and send your kids to expensive schools where they can learn to be just like you . . . and try to hide the fact that you rip off your employees and exploit their labour and plunge them into debt and hold their futures to ransom,


and then retire to bed at night in the hope that you don't perchance to dream?

I find this post insulting and offensive.

I do too. I'm a happy employee of an enterprise that started out as a 2-man band which has blossomed into a state- and nationwide business.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on January 04, 2016, 12:55:04 PM
How can anybody attack a genuine employer, attack their ideals and principles and accuse them of being greedy capitalist mongers. I don't understand.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Laxadanto on January 04, 2016, 01:42:46 PM



The thing is that anytime an employee wants to become an employer, they can
Anytime they want to, Rocks. The only thing they have to do is to decide to do it.



Just like anyone can become a musician - unless they happen to be tone deaf.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 04, 2016, 02:12:53 PM
Think of Beethoven, not only was he a musician but one that has stood the test of time  :) 8)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 04, 2016, 02:24:56 PM



The thing is that anytime an employee wants to become an employer, they can
Anytime they want to, Rocks. The only thing they have to do is to decide to do it.



Just like anyone can become a musician - unless they happen to be tone deaf.

Never heard of Beethoven? (no pun intended)

I knew the excuses would come.

You pursue an industry in which you have skills/abilities/opportunity. I didn't say you got to choose which industry you could choose to become self employed, there are very many available, you just have to choose one and as I said, anyone who wants to move from being an employee to an employer - they can. If the industry you happen to choose is one that you like, then that's a bonus.

I am pretty sure that the guy who started Jim's Mowing (for example) had childhood aspirations of mowing lawns for a living, but he used the skills etc he had available to him to generate an income and lifestyle that he desired.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 04, 2016, 02:34:31 PM
Think of Beethoven, not only was he a musician but one that has stood the test of time  :) 8)

Snap.

But then there will always be people who make excuses for why something can't be done and blame everyone else for their situation in life.

Can't play the piano? then mow a lawn, sell Tupperware, do whatever. The fact still remains, with the exception of a very few, almost everybody can choose to become an employer rather than be an employee, the only thing stopping them is themselves - and somehow, for those who choose not to, it is somehow everyone else's fault, but most of all, the fault of those who do decide to do it.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 04, 2016, 02:36:02 PM
Dick Smith is a good example. He used to repair Taxi meters and at times he had to by the components in bulk so he off loaded components that he had a surplus of by mail order, internet was not born at that time.

 
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kath on January 04, 2016, 02:37:28 PM
I doubt very much if Beethoven was tone deaf, and he certainly wasn't deaf all his life.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 04, 2016, 02:42:17 PM
Beethoven began to lose his hearing at age 28. By age 44, his hearing loss was complete, most likely caused by compression of the eighth cranial nerve associated with Paget's disease of bone.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kath on January 04, 2016, 02:49:09 PM
Hell of a thing to happen when music is your life. I wonder if he actually enjoyed music. He appeared not to be a cheery chap.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 04, 2016, 02:54:42 PM
I doubt very much if Beethoven was tone deaf, and he certainly wasn't deaf all his life.

Kathy, one of my cousins is completely deaf and mute and her husband is 60% deaf. Yes, they have been deaf all their lives. Yet somehow they managed to become self employed. They just didn't make excuses for themselves.

They started by approaching local restaurants to do their laundry, and cuz would wash and launder and iron their dirty linens and cloths etc in her home washing machine. These days they operate a pretty big laundry service that services and supplies many, many establishments.

Whilst they were establishing that, cuz would sew for people and husband worked two and three jobs as a kitchen hand and whatever other work he could get and doing gardening for people, all whilst raising 5 children.

You do what you can. The only barrier is excuses.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kath on January 04, 2016, 03:04:49 PM
Good for them, but are they musicians?





Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 04, 2016, 03:09:21 PM
The  point is, they did what they could. Just because they couldn't do one thing, they pursued something that they could do.

Lax wanted to make excuses for why someone couldn't be self employed. But that's all it was, excuses and excuses don't pay the bills or generate income.

Unless you started some business that charged people to come up with excuses for them, i suppose.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 04, 2016, 03:09:32 PM
One of the people I worked with at the ABC was a thalidomide baby she had only her right arm down to the elbow at the end of that was one thumb,  her legs were impaired and could get about very slowly. She was a radio announcer had a brilliant voice and an attitude to match.
The thalidomide didn't affect her voice, or attitude.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kath on January 04, 2016, 03:12:07 PM
Cheers,
my comment about Beethoven was not to do with the labour force, small business, disabilities or whatever.

I was trying to point out that in your haste to try and make Lax look ignorant you overlooked the part where she said TONE deaf, which to the best of anyones knowledge, Beethoven was not. So your Beethoven comment has no merit in relation to Lax's comment.

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Isabeller.Misspeller on January 04, 2016, 03:13:49 PM
How would you suggest nurses, paramedics or firefighters become self employed? 

Besides which, if everyone ran off and started up their own businesses who would they employ?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 04, 2016, 03:16:36 PM
Fiona Kumari Campbell is a tetraplegic. She just woke up one day at 18 with some disease that caused it, before that she had been a healthy teen.

https://www.griffith.edu.au/health/school-human-services-social-work/staff/associate-professor-fiona-a.-kumari-campbell

https://www.google.com.au/search?sclient=psy-ab&biw=1280&bih=860&noj=1&q=fiona+kumari+campbell+&oq=fiona+kumari+campbell+&gs_l=serp.12..35i39j0i22i30l2.80587.81596.1.83381.9.5.0.0.0.0.436.964.2-2j0j1.3.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..6.3.963.whRsQ03qinw

As you say Poddy, it depends on your attitude.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 04, 2016, 03:20:43 PM
How would you suggest nurses, paramedics or firefighters become self employed? 

provide care in the home for people?

Find a different ability? I am sure that someone capable of fighting fires can mow lawns

Besides which, if everyone ran off and started up their own businesses who would they employ?

Limit your business so that your only employee is yourself. How many people do you believe it takes to mow a lawn?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 04, 2016, 03:21:50 PM
Cheers,
my comment about Beethoven was not to do with the labour force, small business, disabilities or whatever.

I was trying to point out that in your haste to try and make Lax look ignorant you overlooked the part where she said TONE deaf, which to the best of anyones knowledge, Beethoven was not. So your Beethoven comment has no merit in relation to Lax's comment.

No, I didn't overlook it, just identified it as an excuse for why someone couldn't do something.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 04, 2016, 03:22:30 PM
I don't underpay any staff and your inference that i do is scummy.

You and me are now done. I tried to be nice to you and tolerate your behaviour, but I'm now done.

 i didn't infer you underpaid staff , i inferred that in fact you didn't have any . and by inference i am suggesting you neither own or run a restaurant .
Considering all of your other activities and then taking into consideration the time you spend typing i don't see where you could possibly find the time. in short i'm suggesting you are full of it .
as for being ''done'' someone like you is never ''done''
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 04, 2016, 03:23:53 PM
How would you suggest nurses, paramedics or firefighters become self employed? 

Besides which, if everyone ran off and started up their own businesses who would they employ?

oh, and one of my friends at law school was an ambo. She decided to retrain into a different career.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 04, 2016, 03:24:00 PM
How would you suggest nurses, paramedics or firefighters become self employed? 

Besides which, if everyone ran off and started up their own businesses who would they employ?

The unimaginative remainder, the ones who lack the ability or lack the gumption to get off their arse and would rather just stick their hand.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 04, 2016, 03:30:09 PM
I don't underpay any staff and your inference that i do is scummy.

You and me are now done. I tried to be nice to you and tolerate your behaviour, but I'm now done.

 i didn't infer you underpaid staff , i inferred that in fact you didn't have any . and by inference i am suggesting you neither own or run a restaurant .
Considering all of your other activities and then taking into consideration the time you spend typing i don't see where you could possibly find the time. in short i'm suggesting you are full of it .
as for being ''done'' someone like you is never ''done''

see, now you are just making things up. I have never claimed to own or run a restaurant. And you are right, i don't.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 04, 2016, 03:30:38 PM
Tsk Tsk Tsk frownie, is that the best you can do? call a person a liar. Frownie you are a prime example of the Leftie hand out mentality.
you look on in disbelief at anyone who gets things done and is willing to put time and effort into their achievements.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 04, 2016, 03:46:22 PM
 there's no proof of anyone getting anything ''done'' whatsoever . lots of talk though.
 i pity anyone who ever has to work for those with an inflated sense of self and entitlement .
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 04, 2016, 03:49:01 PM
 
 i pity anyone who ever has to work for those with an inflated sense of self and entitlement .

Perfect description of a Union official :)
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Laxadanto on January 04, 2016, 03:50:12 PM

As you say Poddy, it depends on your attitude.
[/quote]

So could you have been an opera singer or an actress if you'd set your mind to it?
Is it lack of attitude that prevents most aspiring models from ever making it onto the catwalk or so many would-be jockeys from scoring a ride in the Melbourne Cup?
Aptitude and attitude are not interchangeable. Some people have many aptitudes, some have very few. Not everyone has the same ones. So to suggest that anyone with the right attitude  is capable of running their own business is patently absurd - a fact that is born out by the number of businesses that go belly-up in their first year. It's not lack of attitude that kills them, it's lack of aptitude.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 04, 2016, 03:59:00 PM
 I wanted to be a catwalk model . I'm tall enough but the hair on my chest (not to mention the 5 o'clock shadow ) make it hard.  then there's the question of my shoulders being broader than my hips ..  apparently gaffer tape will take care of some of the other details but people still tell me to get real .
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 04, 2016, 04:03:42 PM
Lax aptitude is dependant, to a certain degree, on attitude

My attitude had no leanings towards opera and to be an actress would have meant a gender change, as I quite like the gender I am that would never have entered my mind, however I have had some experience in theatrical drama. The catwalk would have taken a great deal of vanity an that is not reflected in my persona. I do believe that a person is more apt to succeed if they have a positive attitude towards what they are attempting a accomplish
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Isabeller.Misspeller on January 04, 2016, 04:12:02 PM
I am sure that someone capable of fighting fires can mow lawns

Of course, silly me.  It's raining right now so of course we don't need any firefighters, what we need are lawm mowers.  I just hope it doesn't stop and dry out anytime soon because all those Jims running around letting off sparks and starting fires might be a bit of a problem.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 04, 2016, 04:21:35 PM
Here is an example for you Lax, I have 2 daughters that are 6 years apart in age, the elder daughter has a natural aptitude to just about anything you care to name and with a few strokes could draw a great picture. Her younger sister wanted desperately to be able to do that from age seven, so she practised constantly between 2-3 hours a day. She is now 27 and has drawn 2-3 hours every say since age about 7 she is now a successful artist. Where as the elder sister lacked the attitude to continue along that line and went a different path, she put her talents into a law degree. 
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 04, 2016, 04:34:55 PM
I am sure that someone capable of fighting fires can mow lawns

Of course, silly me.  It's raining right now so of course we don't need any firefighters, what we need are lawm mowers.  I just hope it doesn't stop and dry out anytime soon because all those Jims running around letting off sparks and starting fires might be a bit of a problem.

You asked how they may become self employed, besides, apparently, fire fire stations used to be private businesses (I think I read it in this thread, so it must be true) I am not aware of any legislation preventing someone from pursuing this avenue, are you?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Isabeller.Misspeller on January 04, 2016, 04:40:51 PM
And I am trying to demonstrate how impractical your ideal of everyone rushing off and starting their own small independent businesses is.  There are things as a society we need to work together for.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Frownland on January 04, 2016, 04:43:36 PM
 They existed , and as i said if you weren't a subscriber the house was allowed to burn .
 the subscribers were given a sign to identify which houses to save , i prefer the socialist government-funded brigades  :)
http://www.ebay.com/sch/Collectible-Firefighting-Rescue-Signs-Plaques/39641/bn_3134408/i.html
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on January 04, 2016, 04:49:03 PM
To have aspirations and ideals is not impractical. Not everybody has the get up and go to do it so they work for wages.
Does that give them a higher moral vanity to denigrate a self employed person and call her a capitalist monger who rips off her employees, sends her children to private schools and goes to bed counting her money?

No....but that is what rocks said to cheers.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 04, 2016, 05:11:31 PM
And I am trying to demonstrate how impractical your ideal of everyone rushing off and starting their own small independent businesses is.  There are things as a society we need to work together for.

and which legislation dictates who has to do this?


How many of those who are nurses or firefighters etc do so because society needs a group of people to work together?

What society actually "needs" (or believes they need) and how they supply those needs/wants are entirely different topics.

I understand that it is not plausible for everyone to operate their own business and that doing so will cause limitations on society, but the topic for discussion is not about utility for the country, but rather utility for the individuals who resent those who do own the means of production. As has been demonstrated in this thread, there ARE people who are happy with their positions and wages and employers, they are happy being employees and having all that goes with that - it is only for those with discontent about their situation where self employment is a consideration.

As I have repeatedly said, people CHOOSE that which they want to do. Don't like the conditions as an employee? Step over to the other side. It is an option available for almost anyone.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: iapetus_rocks on January 04, 2016, 09:06:46 PM
No apology from me, Cheers (i see nothing to apologise for)

but I'll try to answer a few of your questions.

if the workers had a share in the business as well as their wages, then they would be more engaged. Their wage would exist whether or not the business was making a profit, but they might enjoy increased dividends when it was making a profit, thus providing them with an incentive to work harder.

It was you who initially complained of disengaged workers, not putting in their best effort. and I believe I explained to you some of the reasons why this is so.

The business owner takes all the risks because they are, at heart, greedy gamblers, gambling on their ability to exploit both their customers and their employees, and it is right that they bear the risk (we all know that workers too, bear the risk of losing their jobs when businesses fail.

What percentage should a business owner keep? well that would vary depending on how much money was being made by the business. A reasonable living wage is all that is needed for both the employer and the employee.

Now, I'll ask you a question or two.

Does your business own a motor vehicle? and what is it? and do you claim a business use tax deduction for it, while using it (maybe only occasionally for person, private business?)

I have seen motor vehicles on the road bearing a business logo and they are often luxury cars, way over the top of what would be required as a business vehicle. why is this so?

I know of people who run a dingy second-hand shop at almost a loss, but who run a rather expensive tax-deductible business vehicle and who regularly take tax-deductible trips overseas to exotic locations, maybe buying only one or two small items for their shop, but in so doing, qualifying their journey as a business trip.

Why should a real estate agent need to drive a Lexus, using it for weekend personal fun and offsetting it's cost to the govt (which is, in fact, the average working taxpayer)?

It's a rip off and private business does this all the time, may they rot in hell with their bad conscience as their only company.









Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 04, 2016, 10:05:16 PM
A policeman who used to live up the street from us used to bring his car home every night, drop his kids off to school in it on his way to work etc Seen plenty of them go up the street on their lunch break to buy their lunch etc

Other government positions provide cars for their employees. I am so sure that none of those are ever used for personal purposes. *insert sarcasm*

Many private businesses as well who provide cars for their employees and their employees use the cars for things other than intended (do you really believe that the tupperware lady only drives her car for purposes related to the sale of plastic bowls? Yes that is an employee/employer benefit - whilst the tupperware dealer is "self employed", the car is leased, payed for and supplied by the company.)

Just as I am sure there are business owners who exploit loopholes, there is not a doubt in my mind that employees do as well.

stop making out that it is only the big bad business owner who exploits the loopholes, many employees do exactly the same.

BTW, if you own a vehicle, only the business related usage is deductible - some info for you.

http://www.moneycrashers.com/job-related-job-search-expenses-tax-deductions/
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: chickaboom on January 04, 2016, 10:10:56 PM
I worked for several years
For a well known chocolate co.
In Adelaide.
Every year as a christmas
Bonus they gave every employee
a percentage of the net profit.
A hamper for Easter and flowers to all
Female employee for mothers day.
As well as being able to eat as
Much chocolate as you liked
While at work but couldn't take
It home for free.
Great incentives and everyone
Who worked there loved the
Job. It doesn't take much to
Keep your workers happy
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 04, 2016, 10:24:23 PM
a percentage? How does that work? If you give every employee 1% of profits, you run out of profit after 100 employees

A lot of the hotels give staff free nights in house every year and other prezzies on employment anniversaries etc

Example, Hyatt gives you 5 free nights a year anywhere in the world except for your own hotel. Marriott gives one free night a year, but it can only be taken in your own hotel and as your years increase, you get extras, like you might get a dinner for two, or a bottle of wine or a bathrobe or spa treatment as well depending on length of service. and you get mates rates subject to availability if you want extra and you always get 30% off food and beverage

marriott has a brillinat 25 year bonus. Once you serve 25 years (full time or casual prorata) you get "the key to the door" for the rest of your life. You can stay at any Marriott in the world for free for as long as you like subject to availability. Word on the street says that heaps of people in America use this as sort of a retirement plan, they can travel the world for free accommodation. Marriott has still got 2 years to go in Aust, only been opened 23 years here, so no employee has been able to work 25 years yet. You can't modify the rooms, so you can't really "live there" and if occupancy is over 80% you have to move out - but still.. that's pretty darned decent, eh?

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Poddy on January 04, 2016, 10:28:49 PM
but if they get 0.001% you could spread that around 100 employees with out difficulty
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: chickaboom on January 04, 2016, 10:38:04 PM
By a percentage of the net profit which
May have been 10 or 15 % was
Divided up and given to each employee.
My OH was given a beautiful gold
Longines watch after 25 years service
And they threw a party every year for
The over25ers.This was even for people
Who had left the company.
Unfortunately they stopped that a couple
Of years after he left , but it had been
Running for many years.
And at its peek the co. Had over 3000
Employees,  so that would equate to
A lot of money although they all dont
Last 25 years
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: chickaboom on January 04, 2016, 10:40:48 PM
Sorry, my OH didnt work for
The same co,
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 04, 2016, 11:11:01 PM
but if they get 0.001% you could spread that around 100 employees with out difficulty

but if a free lunch every day and about $100 a week in other benefits doesn't cut it, then is .001% a big enough incentive? I mean that's the point, isn't it? I think Kim saidd that people were only interested in big $$$.

I woulda thought that about $5K of benefits a year was pretty good, I'd be stoked if someone gave me that on top of my earnings but, it seems not.

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 05, 2016, 12:20:56 AM


What percentage should a business owner keep? well that would vary depending on how much money was being made by the business. A reasonable living wage is all that is needed for both the employer and the employee.

Define reasonable. More importantly, who gets to define what reasonable is? Is what is reasonable for one person reasonable for another? Should a person who has 5 children to support be paid more than a single person with no obligations? (for doing the same work?) If a person has a child or other dependent with a disability, should they receive more than a person without those added expenses? And if the business is not generating enough to cover what is reasonable for himself, should his employees' pay reduce proportionately?

Now, I'll ask you a question or two.

Does your business own a motor vehicle? No, we lease them. and what is it? toyota hi ace vans. and do you claim a business use tax deduction for it, of course while using it (maybe only occasionally for person, private business?) I am positive that the employees use them for personal use. Doing an errand of a personal nature on the way back from a delivery and stuff like that

I have seen motor vehicles on the road bearing a business logo and they are often luxury cars, way over the top of what would be required as a business vehicle. why is this so?

Why are some people satisfied with budget business cards and stationery whilst others have to have the ducks nuts in quality? I mean, a business card is a business card, isn't it? a letter a letter? They all do the same thing, don't they?

I know of people who run a dingy second-hand shop at almost a loss, but who run a rather expensive tax-deductible business vehicle and who regularly take tax-deductible trips overseas to exotic locations, maybe buying only one or two small items for their shop, but in so doing, qualifying their journey as a business trip.

ah, so only buying one or two items? perhaps they are sourcing suppliers for future purchasing, setting up contacts and contracts for future trade, market research

Why should a real estate agent need to drive a Lexus, using it for weekend personal fun and offsetting it's cost to the govt (which is, in fact, the average working taxpayer)? I know right? Who in their right mind would drive a lexus????

It's a rip off and private business does this all the time, may they rot in hell with their bad conscience as their only company.

I can give just as many examples (and probably more) of how employees do the same from govt and private business, should they too rot in hell?
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: iapetus_rocks on January 05, 2016, 03:21:39 AM
It is not reasonable for an employer to derive excessive profits on the backs those employed. Look at, say, the Commonwealth bank which publishes profits in the billions and pays their workers (those they haven't sacked downsized) a relative pittance.


So, you lease your vehicles, you don't even buy them. How much more of a tax write-off can you claim under this arrangement?

Any expense, even a business card, seems to be a source of rort; some way of gaining a public subsidy for what should be a private expense.

Yes, only buying one or two items, in order to make their overseas trip qualify as a business expense and in no way sourcing a future overseas supply trade. The arrangement is purely so they can go on holidays to exotic places, subsidised by the govt, who of course, uses our taxes for this subsidy.

For god's sake, what does a private company need with a top of the range luxury car as a business vehicle? If you think Lexus is low class, then how about the AMG Merc driven by the real estate agent my parents recently dealt with?

It's not enough to quote examples of how others rort the system and use it to justify the process of rorting.

There is a systems failure and it needs to be fixed. The alternative is more of the same abject poverty co-existing with an obscene amount of private wealth.

This is the system which oversees the clear-felling and burning of rain forests on a global climate altering scale. The system which rapes the landscape and poisons and pollutes it and kills the animals which lived there. and so many other horros.

and it all starts with a little private entrepreneur striving to make a quick dollar and then expanding their business to make another, and another and then a few dollars more, because they are never satisfied that they already live well. They don't care that their success depends upon the misery of others.


I don't propose to post again on this subject on this thread.


Just bear in mind that we live on a planet which has finite resources. The model of continued expansion of the economy is therefore not sustainable in the long term.

We are beginning to see the result of the private enterprise system; gated, wealthy communities employing security guards to keep the hordes of the exploited poor from even looking longingly over their fence.

This cannot continue indefinitely. enough now.




Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 05, 2016, 04:34:45 AM
You can't even define what is reasonable or answer any of the questions that I posed relating to reasonableness when it is you who wants reasonable to be set as a benchmark.

You do realize that when CBA reports their profits that there is no Mr Commonwealth who gets to keep that, don't you? I mean, there are people such as shareholders who have to be paid from that.

And umm, well Ian Narev, a Commonwealth bank EMPLOYEE was paid a base rate of $2.57 MILLION dollars, but with all the extras got over $8 MILLION - you know - an EMPLOYEE, but I spose that is ok by you cos he's just an employee right? Not a nasty business owner. How does that sit on your "reasonable scale"? (geez, sounds like a pittance to me)

Oh look! 12 EMPLOYEES sharing in $50 MILLION dollars... Reasonable? And apparently, the other banks pay higher salaries! I wonder how many of those redistributed their earnings to other employees? But then, they shouldn't have to, right? I mean they're just lowly employees, aren't they?

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/12-commonwealth-bank-executives-shared-50-million-in-pay-last-year-2014-8

Now just between you an me, Lights, these rich folk, they're not building fences to keep the poor people from peeking over, they're building them to keep the crazies out...

BTW, I am not justifying anything, merely pointing out to you that even though you want to blame the employers for being the low life scum bag rorters and exploiters, the same traits are as equally pervasive among the employees

Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 05, 2016, 06:20:00 AM

Just bear in mind that we live on a planet which has finite resources. The model of continued expansion of the economy is therefore not sustainable in the long term.

We are beginning to see the result of the private enterprise system; gated, wealthy communities employing security guards to keep the hordes of the exploited poor from even looking longingly over their fence.

This cannot continue indefinitely. enough now.

You wanna heap hate and scorn on someone for raping and pillaging the earth and don't have any vikings? Well how about you direct some of it towards the consumers who buy and use the things that the business owners produce. The greedy beings who aren't satisfied with one TV in their house or a phone that isn't attached to the wall or a take away coffee, or are too lazy to cook their own meals or just have to have a gym membership and a $200 pair of sports shoes. Try hating on those people for a while, Rocks. They're the ones creating the demands, if they didn't demand this stuff, then no one would make it to supply and business owners would have no reason to be in existence. And maybe if a few of these greedy exploitive consumers could do without some of these things our earth may be a bit more sustainable

but be careful what you wish for Rocks, cos with no one wanting to be a business owner and supplier of goods and services, then there will be no jobs for anyone, even those who want to be employees. Cos there will always be people who want to be or are capable of being an employee, but the pool of those who are able to be employers is marginally smaller - so yeah, it is because there are people who are employers that anybody has a job in the first place.

It's true, without someone to employ, there can be no employers (except for single self employed entities), but there will always be people wanting to be employees so employers are inevitable and if you want to make it so that the "gamble" of being an employer is not worth the effort, then guess what... no jobs for anyone

and the reason why jobs are "priced" as they are? It's because of that very reason, and the basic principles of supply and demand.

so how about laying the blame at the feet of those who really are at fault here, Rocks? You know, those who create the demand whether that be through their wants and needs or their skill and ability levels.

When demand decreases, so to will supply. when supply exceeds demand, prices are low accordingly and that principle applies to whether it is purchasing goods and services or buying and selling labour.

so yeah, lets make being an employer an unattractive commodity in Australia so that those who do create the jobs that so many want, take their bats and balls and go to other countries leaving us with nothing.

and remember also rocks, that if no one's working, then no one's paying tax, so no welfare, no govt resources for expenditure on roads, health, eduation etc (or fireys and ambios and police) - nuffin - zilch - you ever heard of The Great Depression? The one from the 1930's? That's what happens when there is no one providing jobs for employees...
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on January 05, 2016, 09:34:44 AM
Cheers, I am appalled the you are called these vicious names and told to rot in hell. What is wrong with rocks? oh I know she's a new populist socialist who spout garbage all the while living off the sweat of others.

The mindless and usually vicious stupidity of the left has been displayed by rocks and she can't back up her accusations so she calls on the Green mantra of finite resources all the while living the comfortable life it provides.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: chickaboom on January 05, 2016, 09:55:32 AM
Reading through this conversation reminded
Me of the old feudal system
That was in effect in medieval times.
Where lords of the manor were in control.
But the one major difference between now and then,
Was the little people were guaranteed a roof
Over their heads and food on the table.

I don't see hatred or scorn in anything
Rocks has said, he is trying to make it evident to
You the imbalance that wealth of a few has created
In todays society.  You may not be privy to the other end of the
Social scale or you might see his point of view.
And I doubt he was initially referring to you personally
Although you have made it that way.
For you to say that the consumer has enabled the wealth
Of a minority is wrong.
Many people aspire to be nurses, ambos and firies and for you
To suggest they quit their jobs to mow lawns is insulting to say the least.
Our society has been structured with these important elements included for the comfort and benefit of all, not just the wealthy who has less of a need .
Not all employer have your attitude towards their employees.
I don't begrudge anyone who wants to get out there and give it a go,
But as someone previously remarked there are less than 25% of small businesses that survive the first 12mths.
You are one of the lucky ones.
And luck is a factor although you certainly wouldnt agree with that.
Many factors are all required to work in unison to get a successful business off
The ground and one of them is loyal honest and trustworthy employees that feel they are appreciated and not just a number on an inventory


Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 05, 2016, 10:22:10 AM
I agree, nothing wrong with rock's  posts. They are well written, balanced, on topic and he doesn't denigrate into accusations, name calling etc.

I may not agree with his posts on all topics but I read them and think about what he has written.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: chickaboom on January 05, 2016, 10:29:23 AM
I would go so far to add that of all the mumbo
Jumbo that floats around on forums Rocks is
The one solid stoic unwavering informative and
Compationate poster that stands out and there
Are never anomalies in his opinion
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: chickaboom on January 05, 2016, 10:33:31 AM
Meaning that he is speaking from the heart
And is always speaking the truth.
But then again his truth is not everyones truth
And what is the truth is only what you believe.
And thats where a lot of people come to grief.
And in this instance I am not refering to rocks
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 05, 2016, 10:33:38 AM
Yes, and I hope he continues to post here.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: chickaboom on January 05, 2016, 10:35:01 AM
Kim, you are definitely not mouse lol
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on January 05, 2016, 10:46:53 AM
Thanks for your post oppy and I respect your opinion. What I don't respect is the insults he aimed at Cheers to put his point across.

I'm sure that you all know that Australia is carried by the snall business industry and they are not all sending their kids to private schools and going to bed at night counting their money whilst on their way to hell.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: chickaboom on January 05, 2016, 10:59:42 AM
Yes thats true lights but considering the way
He usually conducts himself I'm sure you could
Spare him a small indiscretion. And perhaps allow
An argument to pan itself out without taking sides,
As you might say I have done.But I am just pointing
Out the worth of a good and valuable poster, not in
Opposition to another, but as an observation
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: chickaboom on January 05, 2016, 11:04:08 AM
I knew a cleaner who sent her kids to private
School so there I agree with cheers of the ability
To achieve your dreams
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 05, 2016, 11:18:26 AM
Scholarships ( full or partial) to private schools allow some families to enrol their child, even though the parents couldn't afford the fees.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: chickaboom on January 05, 2016, 11:23:43 AM
No scholarship there as far as I am aware.
She scrimped and saved and went without
and worked very hard to achieve that.
She lived in a trust house, lot of good
It did her though, the last thing I heard
Her kids had moved away and had
Nothing to do with her
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on January 05, 2016, 11:44:25 AM
What a shame and all the hard work and scrimping. I had a marvelous friend, he was a huge millionaire and he went to Las Vegas and blew everything on parties and big houses. He was a super guy but he died of aids, he knew he would die.  What a loss.
He did set up a trust for young journalists though and an award for excellence so he left a great legacy.

He went to the best cschools and university and had grest contacts in very high places.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on January 05, 2016, 11:45:19 AM
Many Aboriginal kids are sent to the best schools but sadly they can't adapt, get too homesick and leave.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 05, 2016, 12:00:13 PM
No scholarship there as far as I am aware.
She scrimped and saved and went without
and worked very hard to achieve that.
She lived in a trust house, lot of good
It did her though, the last thing I heard
Her kids had moved away and had
Nothing to do with her

I didn't mean your example re schloarships.

Sad if her hard work got her kids a good education, now don't have anything to do with her. That can happen though, if kids become highly educated and parent(s) aren't. They move in different circles.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: chickaboom on January 05, 2016, 12:01:34 PM
I knew a guy blew his entire superannuation on
The pokies.didnt take long either, a few months,
His wife had no idea and when she did find out,
Divorced him.
He was a pretty nice guy , pokies are a curse,
Ruined a lot of people's lives, and like drugs they
Have litte or no control and usually only seek help
When the damage is done
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Icyfroth on January 05, 2016, 12:14:39 PM
Poker machines are evil and should be confined to Casinos. Not readily accessible to general public in pubs and clubs.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: chickaboom on January 05, 2016, 12:21:10 PM
They are evil, by design,and are deliberately
Set up to entise, ensnare and fool people inti
Thinking they are winning when in fact they
Are losing. And if you happen to win, what you are
Winning is some other poor bastards last weeks pension.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 05, 2016, 12:36:51 PM
The attraction of Poker machines have often confused me, Icy. I mean, there is no skill involved, no I dunno, no thought process, you just input a dollar, press a button and a machine determines your fate.

At least with poker or something, there is a bit of strategy and skill etc involved.

I wonder now if the machines weren't so prevalent if an underground subculture would evolve, at least whilst they are plentiful and out in the open, it's harder for people to get scammed an stuff and their actions are on display for all, so there is that element of social monitoring?

Or maybe I'm just overthinking it all LOL But I reckon that a lot of people's incomes get poured through the machines. What's worse, is when provided in a place with alcohol, there is inefficient monitoring in these pubs and smaller premises, so the drink can spur on more reckless behaviour than a person may not otherwise display.

if you're just sitting at a machine in a pub, a mate can keep bringing you drinks and the barman or publican is none the wiser of your intoxication levels. At least in a casino, there is a higher duty of care placed on all staff to monitor intoxication levels, not only in person, but by CCTV as well.

Dunno, in theory i don't gamble. I play blackjack/poker etc with fake casino chips and matchsticks at home etc but I don't even buy raffle tickets, prize home tickets, lotto, all forms of gambling, so only commenting from a theoretical perspective. The community we live in is against all forms of gambling, so we just kind of comply I suppose. Though, I do participate in regular auctions whereas the community only approves of silent auctions.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 05, 2016, 06:58:22 PM
Dick Smith went bankrupt today...

There ya go. No idea what this means yet, but some casual employees have had all their shifts cut next week.

Making a profit at one stage and gone. He had only just put a new wave of staff on the week before Christmas, so their jobs are now all gone.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 05, 2016, 07:31:26 PM
"In a blow to customers, Ferrier Hodgson this morning released a statement confirming that it would not honour outstanding gift vouchers or refund deposits paid for goods.

But the firm said it would continue to pay Dick Smith’s 3300 employees and keep the chain’s 393 stores running during the restructure."


Dick Smith is in voluntary administration.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Cheers on January 05, 2016, 07:45:27 PM
Kim, contrary to what your source says. Casual employees have had their shifts cancelled as of today and their pays from last week which are due today have not been processed so far. When asked pay for the hours already worked this week, there was no answer given.

It will be full time staff who will be operating the stores for now whether they are understaffed or not.

One store I know operated on at least 6 casual staff per week averaging about 30 hours a week. That's a lot of man hours for a store to be down and a lot of added work for the remaining employees especially now as they will likely have to deal with a fair few cranky customers whose gift cards etc that they probably just got for Christmas are not being honoured.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 05, 2016, 08:21:26 PM
It was quote via a media outlet, that's all.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on January 08, 2016, 04:52:15 PM
Looks like Coles is going to honour the certificates.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Kim on January 08, 2016, 05:42:23 PM
Yes, any Dick Smith gift cards bought from Coles will be honoured ( with proof of purchase from Coles).

Also Kogan and an online swap/sell gift cards business have conditional offers.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: lightningdance on January 12, 2016, 06:15:48 PM
A new poll shows Labor failing in Victoria. Wow can it all get any more weird? Looks like Lord Wentworth is a success.....so far.
Title: Re: Women deserting Labor
Post by: Icyfroth on January 27, 2016, 03:58:34 PM
Get sone bew naterial,
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